FINANCE

1 1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES 2 ------------------------------------------------------ JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING 3 In the Matter of the 2023-2024 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON 4 ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION 5 ------------------------------------------------------ 6 Hearing Room B Legislative Office Building 7 Albany, New York 8 February 8, 2023 9:36 a.m. 9 10 PRESIDING: 11 Senator Liz Krueger Chair, Senate Finance Committee 12 Assemblywoman Helene E. Weinstein 13 Chair, Assembly Ways & Means Committee 14 PRESENT: 15 Senator Thomas F. O'Mara Senate Finance Committee (RM) 16 Assemblyman Edward P. Ra 17 Assembly Ways & Means Committee (RM) 18 Assemblyman Michael Benedetto Chair, Assembly Education Committee 19 Senator Shelley B. Mayer 20 Chair, Senate Education Committee 21 Assemblywoman Carrie Woerner Chair, Assembly Committee on Libraries 22 and Education Technology 23 Senator John Liu Chair, Senate Committee on New York City 24 Education 2 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 PRESENT: (Continued) 4 Assemblyman William Colton 5 Senator Robert Jackson 6 Assemblyman Steven Otis 7 Assemblywoman Alicia Hyndman 8 Assemblyman Josh Jensen 9 Senator James Tedisco 10 Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon 11 Assemblywoman Mary Beth Walsh 12 Assemblywoman Rebecca A. Seawright 13 Assemblywoman Marianne Buttenschon 14 Senator Daniel G. Stec 15 Senator Brad Hoylman-Sigal 16 Assemblywoman Rodneyse Bichotte Hermelyn 17 Assemblywoman Chantel Jackson 18 Assemblyman Ron Kim 19 Assemblywoman Latoya Joyner 20 Assemblywoman Jennifer Lunsford 21 Senator Peter Oberacker 22 Assemblywoman Marcela Mitaynes 23 Assemblyman Doug Smith 24 Assemblyman William Conrad 3 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 PRESENT: (Continued) 4 Assemblyman Matt Slater 5 Senator Michelle Hinchey 6 Assemblyman Juan Ardila 7 Assemblyman Lester Chang 8 Senator Alexis Weik 9 Assemblyman Sam Pirozzolo 10 Senator Iwen Chu 11 Assemblyman Robert C. Carroll 12 Senator Dean Murray 13 Assemblyman Manny De Los Santos 14 Senator Bill Weber 15 Assemblyman Robert Smullen 16 Assemblywoman Dana Levenberg 17 Assemblyman Brian Manktelow 18 Senator Monica R. Martinez 19 Assemblywoman Crystal D. Peoples-Stokes 20 Assemblyman John W. McGowan 21 Senator Jabari Brisport 22 23 24 4 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Betty A. Rosa Commissioner 6 NYS Education Department 13 22 7 David Banks Chancellor 8 NYC Department of Education 193 204 9 Andrew Pallotta President 10 New York State United Teachers -and- 11 Karen Alford Vice President for 12 Elementary Schools United Federation of Teachers 13 -and- Henry D. Rubio 14 President Council of School Supervisors 15 and Administrators (CSSA) -and- 16 Cynthia E. Gallgher Director, Government Relations 17 School Administrators Association of New York State (SAANYS) 319 332 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 5 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Jennifer Pyle Executive Director 6 Conference of Big 5 School Districts 7 -and- Dr. Edwin M. Quezada 8 Superintendent Yonkers City School District 9 -and- Dr. Tonja Williams 10 Superintendent Buffalo Public Schools 11 -and- Dr. Carmine Peluso 12 Superintendent Rochester City School District 13 -and- Anthony Q. Davis 14 Superintendent Syracuse City School District 381 393 15 Dr. Bernadette Kappen 16 Cochair 4201 Schools Association 17 -and- Dr. Edward Placke 18 President New York State Coalition 19 of 853 Schools -and- 20 Randi Levine Policy Director 21 Advocates for Children of New York 420 431 22 23 24 6 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Robert Lowry Deputy Director 6 New York State Council of School Superintendents 7 -and- Brian C. Fessler 8 Director, Government Relations NYS School Boards Association 9 -and- Dan White 10 Legislative Chair BOCES of New York State 11 -and- David A. Little, Esq. 12 Executive Director Rural Schools Association 13 of New York State -and- 14 Kyle Belokopitsky Executive Director 15 NYS Parent Teacher Association 459 474 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 7 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Maxwell Prime Director of Government 6 Relations & Advocacy NY Library Association 7 -and- David Christopher 8 Executive Director New York Association for 9 Pupil Transportation -and- 10 Nicholas Vallone President 11 New York School Bus Contractors Association 12 -and- Dr. Amy S. DelCorvo 13 CEO & Executive Director NYS Association for Computers 14 and Technology in Education -and- 15 Alli Lidie Network Lead 16 NYS Community Schools Network 519 537 17 Sydney Altfield Executive Director 18 Teach NYS -and- 19 James D. Cultrara Executive Secretary 20 NYS Council of Catholic School Superintendents 21 -and- Rabbi Yeruchim Silber 22 Director of New York Governmental Relations 23 Agudath Israel 573 581 24 8 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Yomika S. Bennett Executive Director 6 NY Charter Schools Association -and- 7 Nakia Franklin President 8 Charter Parent Council -and- 9 James Merriman CEO 10 NYC Charter School Center 603 612 11 Patrick Kenneally Public Policy and Legislative 12 Committee Member New York School Nutrition 13 Association -and- 14 Jessica Pino-Goodspeed Co-Leader 15 Healthy School Meals for All New York Kids Campaign 16 -and Megan Bates 17 Senior School Lunch Director Niskayuna CSD 641 650 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 9 1 2023-2024 Executive Budget Elementary & Secondary Education 2 2-8-23 3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued 4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS 5 Michael A. Rebell Executive Director 6 Center for Educational Equity Teachers College at 7 Columbia University -and- 8 Jasmine Gripper Executive Director 9 Alliance for Quality Education -and- 10 Phylisa Wisdom Director, Development and 11 Government Affairs YAFFED 12 -and- Amshula Jayaram 13 Coalition Lead Solutions Not Suspensions 14 Coalition -and- 15 Ashara Baker New York State Director 16 National Parents Union -and- 17 Nikos Papageorgiou Concerned Parent 668 688 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 10 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Good morning. 2 I'm Helene Weinstein, chair of the 3 New York State Assembly's Ways and Means 4 Committee and cochair of today's hearing. 5 Today we begin the third in a series 6 of hearings conducted by the joint fiscal 7 committees of the Legislature regarding the 8 Governor's proposed budget. Today the 9 Assembly Ways and Means Committee and the 10 Senate Finance Committee will hear testimony 11 concerning the Governor's proposal for 12 elementary and secondary education. 13 So I'd like to take a moment to 14 introduce the members of the Assembly 15 Majority who are here, and then 16 Senator Krueger will introduce the members of 17 the Senate. 18 So we have our chair of Education, 19 Assemblyman Benedetto; chair of our 20 Libraries Committee, Assemblywoman Woerner. 21 We have Assemblyman Otis, Assemblyman Colton, 22 Assemblywoman Hyndman, Assemblywoman Jackson. 23 And I think at the moment -- oh, right, I 24 thought I -- Assemblywoman Buttenschon. 11 1 Senator Krueger? 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 3 Good morning, everyone. I'm joined 4 this morning so far by our chair of the 5 Education Committee, Shelley Mayer; our chair 6 of the New York City Education Committee, 7 John Liu; Robert Jackson, Brad Hoylman-Sigal, 8 and Michelle Hinchey. 9 And I'm going to just ask my ranker 10 from Finance, Tom O'Mara, to introduce his 11 members. 12 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you, 13 Chairwoman. 14 We're joined on our side by our 15 ranking member Jim Tedisco, Senator Alexis 16 Weik, Senator Dean Murray, Senator Peter 17 Oberacker. Thank you. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman Ra. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you. 20 Good morning. We are joined by 21 Assemblyman Smith, who is our ranker on the 22 Education Committee; Assemblyman Slater, who 23 is our ranker on Libraries; and 24 Assemblymembers Jensen, Chang and Pirozzolo. 12 1 Oh, and Walsh. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 3 So just some ground rules both for the 4 witnesses and for -- importantly, also for 5 the legislators who are here and who will be 6 coming. 7 So governmental witnesses have 8 10 minutes to make a presentation. 9 Nongovernmental witnesses have three minutes 10 to make their presentation. Just a reminder, 11 your testimony has been received by the 12 committee and distributed to all of the 13 members, so please summarize. The time goes 14 faster than you think if you start to read. 15 In terms of the legislators, the 16 chairs of the relevant committee have 17 10 minutes to ask a question of the 18 governmental witnesses. The chairs only get 19 a second round of three minutes if they need 20 it. The rankers of the respective committees 21 have five minutes to ask questions of the 22 governmental witness. All other members, 23 three minutes. 24 And in an attempt to not break 13 1 yesterday's record of 10.5 hours for our 2 hearing, we -- and not have our 12-hour 3 hearings and 13-hour hearings we had in prior 4 years, we really ask the legislators to let 5 either myself or Senator Krueger or your 6 respective rankers know, when the 7 governmental witness is finished, if you want 8 to ask a question. Not an hour into the 9 questioning, or not come running in and ask a 10 question that's probably been asked already. 11 So -- and just a reminder that there 12 are no PowerPoint presentations, placards, or 13 signs permitted in the hearing room, either 14 by witnesses, guests or legislators. 15 So with that, why don't we get to our 16 Elementary and Secondary Ed Hearing, hearing 17 from our first witness, Commissioner Betty 18 Rosa. 19 Commissioner. 20 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Thank you. 21 Good morning. Good morning, Chairs Krueger, 22 Weinstein, Mayer, Liu and Benedetto. And 23 good morning as well to the members of the 24 Senate and Assembly who are here today. 14 1 I'm Betty A. Rosa, commissioner of 2 Education. I'm joined today by Executive 3 Deputy Commissioner Sharon Cates-Williams, 4 Senior Deputy Commissioner Jim Baldwin, and 5 Chief Financial Officer Phyllis Morris. 6 I want to acknowledge and thank 7 Chancellor Lester Young and the members or 8 the Board of Regents who I know are watching 9 today. I also want to thank our 10 stakeholders, whom we work with every day to 11 meet the needs of the students and our 12 communities. We would also like to recognize 13 the role played by our cross-agency partners 14 in the last two years in co-creating and 15 harnessing the potential of connections and 16 partnerships. 17 The stated mission of the New York 18 State Education Department is to raise the 19 knowledge, the skills and opportunities for 20 all New Yorkers. To achieve this, we have 21 developed three guiding principles. We want 22 to make sure that these principles are the 23 ones that guide all of our work. To foster 24 lifelong learning, academic success, and 15 1 improved outcomes for all students. Advance 2 equity, excellence, and access for all 3 students. Strengthen the department's 4 capacity to serve the public. That issue of 5 service is very critical for us. 6 Our budget requests align closely with 7 these guiding principles and would provide 8 the resources needed to achieve them. And 9 when we do that, we will be able to provide 10 all students the tools they need to graduate 11 high school, prepare for a lifetime of 12 continuous learning, fulfilling careers, and 13 informed civic engagement. 14 The department's budget requests, as 15 you already have, fall into six major areas. 16 Early childhood programs. We seek to 17 ensure that New York's youngest learners, 18 building a foundation, start out where they 19 deserve with all the opportunities and 20 resources. Doing so requires funding. It 21 also requires us to streamline the current 22 system, make it more accessible to students 23 and families, and enable us to better target 24 services and support to historically 16 1 underserved communities. 2 In the second area, teaching and 3 learning preparation, we are asking the 4 Legislature to fund systematic improvements 5 to the teacher certification system. That 6 will improve customer service and make it 7 easier for prospective and current educators 8 to explore career advancement through 9 certification opportunities. Doing this will 10 remove barriers to the profession and help 11 develop a more diverse educator workforce. 12 We're also looking to streamline 13 teacher certification pathways and increase 14 the professional learning opportunities 15 available to teachers. 16 The third area, high school 17 opportunities and career success. We're 18 seeking to provide multiple ways for school 19 districts and BOCES to offer students much 20 greater and much more equitable access to 21 advanced high school work. Career and 22 Technical Education programs are key, and 23 other college pathway programs such as P-Tech 24 and Early College High School. 17 1 The issue of funding equity is our 2 fourth. We are grateful for all the 3 commitment and the Governor's commitment to 4 fully funding Foundation Aid. The Regents 5 and the department will continue to advocate 6 for a sustainable funding model that directs 7 aid to the schools that need it most, 8 regardless of where they're located, be it 9 urban, suburban and rural. 10 To that end, we are seeking a modest 11 investment of 1 million to fund a Foundation 12 Aid study, a feasibility study that will 13 ensure resources go to those districts with 14 the greatest needs. 15 Our fifth area is health and 16 well-being. It is axiomatic but bears 17 repeating: Children who are healthy, 18 well-adjusted, and well-fed are better 19 prepared to learn and thrive in school than 20 those who are not. It is really that simple, 21 and it's really that important, that we make 22 sure that all students have access to these 23 basic necessities. 24 Our final one is the area of data and 18 1 system modernization. We are all, in our 2 department, suffering from this issue of data 3 modernization. To provide the customer 4 service and support that New Yorkers expect 5 and deserve, our department is seeking to 6 modernize and update some of our 7 technology-based systems. Our systems in 8 many cases are not only outdated but create 9 challenges in trying to, again, serve the 10 public. 11 An overall strategy we seek too is to 12 streamline the multiple ways that early 13 childhood programs are currently funded. 14 While we applaud the additional pre-K 15 programs in the Executive Budget proposal, 16 the fact is the program is overly complex. 17 Pre-K is governed by two different laws and 18 six different funding streams, each with its 19 own set of complex rules. And let's be 20 honest: Pre-K is not universal. 21 Serving preschoolers with disabilities 22 requires advancement, which New York State 23 has not yet achieved. To address this 24 disparity, we are promoting a 20 million 19 1 preschool inclusivity grant so that we can in 2 fact study this issue. We also want to 3 continue working to fix the tuition 4 methodology used to fund preschools and 5 school-age special education programs that is 6 broken. 7 Under the methodology -- until this 8 methodology is fixed, we urge tuition parity 9 for these programs to mirror the funding 10 increases we annually provide to public 11 schools. We are a diverse state, not only in 12 population but in geographical as well. The 13 experiences and challenges of our districts 14 and our students can vary from the Big 5, 15 suburbs, and rural. This is why more 16 flexibility and collaboration is needed. 17 In addition to that, competitive 18 grants are fine. When piloting new programs, 19 they work. Yet when we have to use them, 20 these competitive grants create and breed 21 inequality. They create winners and losers. 22 While we applaud the $20 million P-TECH and 23 Early College High School program, it lacks 24 the flexibility that our districts require to 20 1 create innovative programs. 2 This is why we have proposed creating 3 college credit and career opportunity 4 programs which would combine P-TECH, Early 5 College High School, and advanced coursework 6 opportunities under one appropriation, to 7 allow districts to apply for the funding. 8 New York is struggling with education 9 staffing. We all know that. And we have to 10 take a look at that issue very closely. We 11 also have to look at regionalization, which 12 is an essential component of cost-effective 13 plans. And we also have to increase 14 educational opportunities through 15 collaborative methods. These actions will 16 remove barriers to the profession for 17 educators and promote a more diverse 18 workforce. 19 Finally, I would be remiss if I failed 20 to express a strong opposition to the 21 Governor's plan to transfer the department's 22 long-standing function of licensing and 23 overseeing healthcare professionals to the 24 Department of Health. 21 1 The current system works. It works 2 because it aligns to the state system of 3 educational preparation, licensure, and 4 professional oversight under a single 5 umbrella, thereby ensuring the public is 6 served by competent, well-trained health 7 professionals. 8 The transfer is being proposed without 9 any feasibility study and any real 10 consideration to this issue. The proposal is 11 drastic. It really needs to be really looked 12 at. While the Executive proposal contains 13 many laudable proposals and needed resources, 14 it would be one that needs to be studied. 15 Before I conclude my testimony, I want 16 to thank the district superintendents for 17 their leadership, and the staff of the 18 department who work so incredibly hard on 19 behalf of teachers, students, and the 20 families across the state. 21 And with that, thank you so much for 22 your attention and I look forward to all of 23 your questions. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, 22 1 Commissioner. 2 Before we go to questions, we've been 3 joined by Assemblymembers Simon, Joyner and 4 Slater. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And, sorry, we've 6 been joined by Senator Martinez. 7 SENATOR O'MARA: And Senator Bill 8 Weber. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I just want to 10 remind people that, both legislators and the 11 commissioner -- well, you've been here 12 numerous times, but we do have new 13 legislators -- that the time limit is both 14 for the question and the answer. So don't do 15 what happened a few times yesterday with 16 someone saying, I have eight seconds left, so 17 let me ask you my final question. 18 Please leave time. Senator Krueger 19 and I were given a gavel because -- if we had 20 an unruly member, but we didn't need to use 21 it. So hopefully we don't need to use it 22 today. And with that, we'll go -- 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We also weren't 24 sure whether we're using it on the member or 23 1 on the table. 2 (Laughter.) 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Right. 4 We also have Assemblymember Ardila who 5 joined us. 6 And now we go to the chair of the 7 Assembly Education Committee, Assemblyman 8 Benedetto. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: (Mic off.) 10 Thank you. Good morning, commissioner, and 11 thank you so much for being here. 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Good 13 morning. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Listen, I'm 15 continually -- and I'm sure you are too -- 16 frustrated in education about -- we spend an 17 awful lot of money on education and never 18 seem to get there. I mean, we have so many 19 students who are just not achieving the way 20 they should be achieving. Okay? And I'm 21 talking about, let's say, in reading. 22 Have we looked at, have we explored, 23 what are your views on the way we teach 24 reading? It has been brought to my attention 24 1 that New York State is out of step in 2 teaching young children how they read, how 3 they go about processing reading. And yet 4 there are new theories, or maybe they are old 5 theories that are now new again. 6 Just your opinion on that. 7 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, I 8 think when you're talking about old theories 9 that are new, you're probably making 10 reference to the brain research. That's what 11 I'm assuming you're referencing. 12 But I want to go to the fact that you 13 said -- many times we look at this context of 14 success through the lens of high-stakes 15 testing. And so I think the one thing that 16 we're truly looking at is really having a 17 sense of -- when we think about our students 18 success, and particularly you used the term 19 "reading," using multiple ways of looking at 20 that success in terms of achievement, in 21 terms of how students move forward both at 22 the local level -- as a former principal, 23 superintendent -- the kinds of strategies, 24 the kinds of programs that we put in place 25 1 that support our students. 2 One of the things that I think we have 3 not done a good job is -- and as I -- the 4 reason I talked about pre-K is exactly this 5 issue of building the foundation. And so 6 later on we look at and we think about the 7 investments that we need to make to start the 8 race in the right place at the right time, 9 both for special-needs students and Gen X 10 students, particularly in collaborative, 11 inclusive environments. So that our students 12 have the kind of foundation that they need to 13 move forward. 14 So setting that foundation is 15 critical. But I do think that in looking at 16 the results, if we look at the results 17 through one lens only -- and, you know, we 18 can look at graduation rates. As we know, 19 that's also a measure. But we have to look 20 at across -- across the aisle, what are the 21 strategies that are used, what research 22 informs those strategies, and what are the 23 results from a multiple way, not just looking 24 at it through one specific high-stakes -- and 26 1 not to take away, it is -- it's important, 2 but it's one factor in the equation. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Thank you. 4 The Regents. There are rumors that 5 the Regents are reviewing the qualifications 6 for graduation and possibly doing away with 7 the Regents examinations, or revising the 8 Regents examinations. 9 Have you been privy to maybe some of 10 their discussions and which way they're going 11 in this area? 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Point of 13 clarification. The Regents exams -- first of 14 all, most of you know in 2019 we started a 15 task force to look at our graduation rate, to 16 look at our graduation process, and to look 17 at what it means to have a New York State 18 diploma. And with students, how they are 19 prepared, whether it's for career or college 20 and civic readiness. 21 So the Regents exam is a factor. But 22 we -- from 2019, we put an original task 23 force from that. We've spent a great deal of 24 time working with our partners, our research 27 1 partners, which are given to us by the 2 feds -- USDE pays for that, West Ed, looking 3 at research not only nationally but 4 internationally. And we did -- recently we 5 did a report on this. 6 But in addition to that, we've put 7 together 64 members of a task force with 8 various -- various I would call participants 9 from rural to urban to suburban principals, 10 business -- as a matter of fact, yesterday 11 Chris White did a presentation with our 12 blue-ribbon committee to talk about CTE with 13 students' voices as well as parents' voices, 14 to talk about how we work together. And 15 that's what I was talking about, 16 cross-agency. 17 So it is not the Regents that are 18 doing this work. This work is being done by 19 a cross-section of various both educators, 20 business, and other individuals as our 21 stakeholders, that are very much a part of 22 this conversation. And we will be -- in 23 November, the committee will be advancing 24 recommendations to the department and the 28 1 Board of Regents. 2 So to your question about getting rid 3 of or making decisions -- no decisions have 4 been made or will be made. As a matter of 5 fact, there's a summit convening to look at 6 these different issues that we're struggling 7 with. 8 So while I know there's a narrative 9 out there that -- you know, about the 10 Regents, specific about the exam, we are 11 looking at the entire process of what it 12 means to be prepared for college, for career, 13 and civic readiness. It is not -- the 14 Regents' conversation seems to have dominated 15 a lot of this issue, but in fact it is one 16 issue that we are going to be looking at, but 17 it is not the only issue. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Thank you. 19 One last question, please. I would be 20 remiss if I don't bring up our special 21 education schools. They are near and dear to 22 my heart. They do wonderful jobs teaching, 23 educating the children who need it most, need 24 our help most. 29 1 Yet, year after year, the 4201s -- 2 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: The 4410s 3 also. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: The special ed 5 schools are just always begging for more 6 money, they're losing teachers. Your 7 observations. 8 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Sure. In my 9 presentation you heard me talk about the 10 4410s. You know, the tuition rate 11 methodology is broken. We really have to 12 create a sense of parity. We have to really 13 create -- we have to make a commitment to 14 take that methodology, that formula, because 15 we are losing -- I mean, I think -- and I 16 know that Phyllis can correct me. I think in 17 2014 we had -- you know, we've lost a lot of 18 our residential programs, a lot of our 19 programs that really support and are 20 available to our children who need these 21 programs. 22 But when we have a broken methodology 23 formula that doesn't allow these programs -- 24 doesn't sustain and doesn't create the 30 1 opportunities to have these programs for the 2 parents. As a matter of fact, many of you 3 know parents who need residential programs, 4 sometimes we have to send them out of state. 5 And sometimes we pay twice or three times as 6 much because we haven't built the capacity 7 internally to make it easier for parents to 8 continue the relationship with their children 9 while they're in these settings. 10 And we also have not provided a 11 methodology that really supports the 12 teachers, the programs, to continue to be 13 effective on behalf of our students who need 14 these programs. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Commissioner, 16 thank you for your answers, your time. And 17 thank you for the job you're doing. Thank 18 you. 19 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 21 We've been joined by Assemblymembers 22 Lunsford and Mitaynes and Conrad. 23 Now we go to the Senate. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 31 1 Next is our chair of Education, 2 Shelley Mayer. 3 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you, Madam 4 Chair. 5 Thank you, Commissioner. And staff, 6 thank you for your work. Thank you for being 7 partners with us in the Legislature. 8 You know, with the really persistence 9 of the Legislature and now with the help of 10 this Governor, we are finally fully funding 11 Foundation Aid. We are in the third year of 12 this, which is a pretty historic thing, and 13 we appreciate how much you've been a partner 14 in that. 15 How do you think that translates into 16 student outcomes and student experience in 17 education, where we're dealing with years of 18 underfunding in particular school districts, 19 which we're very familiar with, but now we're 20 trying to address that. So I wondered if you 21 could sort of briefly say how you think it 22 impacts the experience of students and of 23 course families that care about how their 24 kids are educated. 32 1 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, I also 2 want to add the pandemic, in the middle of 3 all this, particularly with the issues of 4 mental health and all the isolation and 5 disconnect that we have to think about, the 6 reentry of many of our students back into the 7 system. I think we're all seeing not only 8 the years of struggling, you know, from 2008 9 moving forward, and trying to really in many 10 ways educate our students with limited 11 resources. At the same time, the pandemic 12 also exacerbated the needs. As you know, 13 right now we're going through the issue of -- 14 we call it academic, you know, recovery, but 15 it's also social-emotional recovery for many 16 of our students. 17 So I do think while, to your point, we 18 are extremely grateful for the work that was 19 done to get to that point in terms of fully 20 funding Foundation Aid, even in that space 21 there are still some issues that we need to 22 really zoom in and address in terms of social 23 workers, all the issues that schools need to 24 really, truly respond to, to make sure that 33 1 our children have the kinds of resources they 2 need to be ready. I mean, the issue with 3 nutrition, you know, we can't -- you know, 4 students that are having issues whether it's 5 at home or the only meals that they really 6 have are the meals that they get in school, 7 and some of them take home some of those 8 meals. 9 I mean, all of these are very complex 10 issues. And you know, because we've 11 discussed them continuously, both at the 12 local level as well as at the state level. 13 Jim, you want to -- 14 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 15 You know, I think we need to recognize 16 that the resources will certainly increase 17 the capacity of our schools in most cases. 18 However, there are schools where they receive 19 really a maintenance-of-effort kind of boost, 20 and there is evidence that those schools are 21 struggling and will continue to struggle 22 unless we address some of the issues in the 23 formula. 24 A few things to point out. The 34 1 current formula is based on the 2000 Census, 2 the 2006 Regional Cost Index, and dated 3 measures of what are referred to as 4 successful schools. So while the full 5 funding of the formula is certainly 6 applauded, we do need to recognize that it 7 has taken well over a decade for us to get 8 there and that times have changed, the 9 demands on our schools have changed. 10 And that is why we've requested 11 resources to conduct the research that's 12 necessary in order for us to make informed 13 recommendations as to how the Foundation Aid 14 formula could be reformed. 15 SENATOR MAYER: Yes, and we're 16 familiar with the $1 million request that you 17 have made to begin to address that. 18 You raised a point, Commissioner, that 19 is important I think to many of us, which is 20 the need -- the mental health needs of our 21 students, their social-emotional health. 22 Last year with the Governor we put money into 23 the RECOVS program, which was intended to 24 be -- to really address some of this need on 35 1 a school-specific basis. And I think there's 2 been a challenge getting that money out the 3 door, to put it nicely. 4 So can you walk through with us why 5 money that you supported, we supported, the 6 Governor supported, doesn't get to the 7 schools within the year that -- since we 8 enacted the last budget? 9 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Sure. 10 Besides giving you an overview, I think I 11 also sent to your office kind a chronology as 12 well. 13 SENATOR MAYER: Yes. 14 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And I 15 think -- and that's something that we would 16 like to submit as evidence of an area that we 17 really do need to address. And I think it 18 should be for all of our legislators. 19 One of the major issues we have is 20 that we can get together -- and in this 21 particular case, we did -- with 22 Mental Health, and we can come up with a way 23 that we believe -- it's a tremendous amount 24 of work to get an RFP done. And then we 36 1 submit it, and then we submit it to DOB. And 2 as I said, we will make sure, for the sake of 3 time, to share it. And we dated -- and this 4 is the kind of work we're doing right now, is 5 taking stock and making sure we give you 6 evidence. It isn't just talking about it. 7 But here's the evidence. In May we 8 start out, we pull and put together the 9 proposal, we submit the proposal, questions 10 come back and forth, and that could take 11 several months of trying to answer those 12 questions for DOB. It sits, it goes back -- 13 you know. 14 SENATOR MAYER: Right. 15 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So a year 16 later we're still waiting for approval. The 17 field is looking at us, we're in the middle 18 of this, looking -- you know, this is a 19 collaborative with Mental Health -- looking 20 at us and saying, we desperately need this. 21 But unfortunately because it is with DOB -- 22 SENATOR MAYER: DOB, I think you mean. 23 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I'm sorry? 24 SENATOR MAYER: DOB. 37 1 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: DOB, yeah. 2 Budget. And the approval has to go through 3 that. 4 Even creating, I mean, any RFP -- 5 that's why we're having concerns about RFPs 6 and equity issues. Any RFP can take anywhere 7 between nine to 10 months, with all the 8 negotiations that go on. It is an area that 9 we have to look at. We have to streamline 10 it, we have to get to a point that, you know, 11 all the work that we're doing in 12 collaboration with our other agencies -- that 13 we do this work, but that we do it and make 14 sure that if they have 27, 30 questions, 15 let's sit at the table, let's get the 16 questions done, let's get this money into the 17 hands of our school districts and our schools 18 and our agencies where it's needed. 19 SENATOR MAYER: Understood. I mean, 20 we're looking for practical solutions to -- 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Absolutely. 22 And -- 23 SENATOR MAYER: -- eliminate this 24 problem of such delay. So understood on 38 1 that. Thank you. 2 I just want to jump -- because you did 3 talk about many things that I have questions 4 about. But on early childhood -- and thank 5 you for your real focus on that. Here's 6 another program where the Legislature 7 fought -- with the leadership of certainly 8 our leader, Andrea Stewart-Cousins -- to get 9 more full-day pre-K for 4-year-olds outside 10 New York City. And yet there's a significant 11 number of dollars left on the table because 12 districts have not either elected or feel 13 they are unable to provide -- or in some 14 cases uninterested in providing full-day 15 pre-K for 4-year-olds. 16 I know you have some suggestions on 17 how to improve the program. Can you just 18 walk through them very briefly and summarize 19 how we can make this program work and provide 20 meaningful full-day 4-year-old pre-K? 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Right. 22 Well -- but before we even address how 23 we can make it work, you have six different 24 programs operating. You have different 39 1 funding streams operating. So when schools 2 have to make decisions about this -- and 3 there are different -- you know, there are 4 different levels in terms of cost. And so 5 schools are having to not only make 6 decisions, reporting different, you know -- 7 for example, I think in the original 8 25 million, approximately about $12 million 9 were left on the table because people -- it 10 is a nightmare trying to get through the six 11 different programs that are operating. We 12 need to streamline it, make it truly 13 universal. If we believe in universal pre-K, 14 name it, label it, and make sure we advance 15 it and support it and have it work that way. 16 Phyllis, do you want -- 17 SENATOR MAYER: I just want to ask, 18 aren't I correct that some districts are not 19 taking it because the reimbursement is not 20 adequate for the cost of -- 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: A year 22 later. Yeah, you have to lay the money 23 up-front. This is what I'm saying. 24 SENATOR MAYER: Yes, understood. 40 1 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: It's so 2 complex. You lay the money up-front and then 3 it's -- you get the money next year. 4 So the complexity of these structures 5 are making it challenge -- you know, it's 6 not -- we hear the rhetoric, right, and we 7 hear the rhetoric of "We're advancing, we're 8 paying, we have all of this, why aren't 9 people taking advantage of this?" 10 The one good thing they suggested at a 11 recent meeting with the chamber, with the 12 representatives from the Governor's office, 13 let's collect data, let's look at this and 14 figure out what are the barriers. Well, at 15 the same time we look at the barriers, it's 16 the same thing with the 4410s, with special 17 ed and the methodology, right? We're talking 18 about inclusive classrooms, and yet look at 19 the way we do that funding in terms of 4410s 20 and our UPK. 21 So all I'm saying is I think it's so 22 important to really look at the structural 23 issues when we do -- when we do this. I'm 24 sorry. 41 1 SENATOR MAYER: No, I understand. 2 Thank you very much, Commissioner. 3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 5 Assemblywoman Woerner, chair of the 6 Libraries Committee, for 10 minutes. 7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you very 8 much, Commissioner. I appreciate your 9 testimony. 10 I'm going to focus, as you might 11 imagine, on libraries. So in your testimony 12 you talked about how part of your strategy is 13 fostering lifelong learning and advancing 14 equity and ensuring access for all. And 15 certainly libraries play that role in our 16 communities. 17 So my -- I'm going to start with a 18 question that says, in the Aid to Libraries 19 proposal, we're $6 million off of our peak 20 in -- that was in 2008. So we have been 21 steadily decreasing the funding in our aid to 22 our community libraries. And I wonder how 23 you might reconcile that with a goal of 24 fostering lifelong learning and access for 42 1 all. 2 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So I want to 3 start by saying thank you for that question, 4 because I think we all know particularly 5 libraries in communities, they are the heart 6 of the learning for adults and the heart of 7 learning. They're a hub where literacy -- 8 that -- the question that was asked by Chair 9 Benedetto, where families kind of gather and 10 have opportunities to share that learning 11 process. 12 So the -- I know the Regents advanced 13 the issue of having additional resources 14 added to this. Instead, I'm going to let my 15 exec share with you -- oh, Phyllis. Phyllis. 16 Let's talk about the funding and then we'll 17 talk about the remedies. 18 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So the Executive 19 Budget does propose a $3.5 million decrease 20 for aid to public libraries, which -- year to 21 year. And that is something that we are 22 concerned about. We have advocated for full 23 funding for the formula-based program. We've 24 also advocated for an increase in public 43 1 library construction, which is also decreased 2 in the Executive Budget. 3 So -- and we also have advocated a fee 4 increase for the Office of Cultural 5 Education, which would support all of the 6 programs that the Office of Cultural 7 Education administers, to help with 8 administering these programs. 9 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: So as 10 Phyllis mentioned, we did put forth a 11 proposal to increase the fees. And it's a 12 minimal increase. And these fees mostly come 13 from mortgage fees during closings. So the 14 fees are very small, but the return is really 15 big when it comes to libraries. 16 And of course, as you know, with 17 libraries there's the whole broadband issue. 18 So that is a part of the goals, and that's 19 why we asked for the funding that we asked 20 for. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you. 22 So just for clarity, my understanding 23 is that the -- that currently the mortgage 24 recording fee that the library -- that the 44 1 state receives to fund the Cultural Education 2 and the LGRMIF program is $17 per 3 transaction. And you're asking for an 4 additional 10, is that correct? 5 NYSED CFO MORRIS: That is correct. 6 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: That's 7 correct. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Okay. And as 9 I look at the Cultural Education and the 10 LGRMIF accounts, I'm noting that you're 11 currently running a deficit. So it's not 12 just about needing to expand, but you're 13 actually running a deficit of about 14 $4.2 million. 15 And so I'm wondering if we fail to 16 make this adjustment, what is your strategy 17 for closing that gap? 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Wait, just a 19 point of clarification on this. 20 We have been running a deficit and 21 racing to really erase that deficit. So good 22 news, Phyllis? 23 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Right. So there 24 has been a deficit for a number of years. 45 1 The deficit has been erased, and that was not 2 an easy task. 3 There was -- because the fees are 4 based on mortgage recording, and so the fees 5 depend on the housing market, which has -- is 6 nothing that the State Education Department 7 can control and nothing that is directly 8 related to the actual business of Cultural 9 Education. So we're really dependent on the 10 way the mortgage and housing market 11 fluctuates. 12 But yes, in the past there -- when the 13 housing market was booming, there was surplus 14 that was swept into the General Fund in the 15 budget, and then we've had a deficit since 16 then. But the deficit, through a lot of 17 cost-cutting actions on the part of the 18 department and the Office of Cultural 19 Education, has led us to be able to erase 20 that deficit. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: And am I 22 correct in saying that the cost-cutting 23 measures that you engaged in included 24 eliminating curators in the archives and in 46 1 the State Museum, which impacts the 2 experience that visitors have and the 3 researchers have in our state institutions? 4 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: Yes, 5 that is correct. As well as other programs 6 that the fund supports. 7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you. 8 So I note that in the Executive Budget 9 she zeroes out funding for the Schomburg 10 Center for Research in Black Culture and the 11 Langston Hughes Community Library. And these 12 are, you know, truly institutions that are 13 unique cultural resources in our state and 14 really a source of strong community pride. 15 Can you help me to understand what the 16 thought process is behind that? 17 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: The 18 thought process behind the -- 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Zeroing out 20 those funds. 21 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: 22 Zeroing out the funds? Well, I don't know 23 that I can speak on behalf of the Executive 24 and why they thought that that made sense, 47 1 but we certainly support those institutions 2 and would like to see the funds reinstated. 3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Fantastic. 4 Thank you so very much. 5 And I'll cede the rest of my time. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 7 Senate? 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 9 We think education is so important we 10 have two committees for it. So we have 11 Chair John Liu, chair of the New York City 12 Education Committee. 13 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 Great to see everybody today. Always 15 good to see you, Commissioner, and your team. 16 I think I want to underscore what 17 Chair Mayer has already said, that we are, 18 for the very first time ever, fully funding 19 Foundation Aid, thanks in no small part to 20 the efforts of Chair Mayer, Chair Krueger, 21 and our leader, Andrea Stewart-Cousins. It's 22 a big deal. 23 Now, now that there's so much money 24 it's fully funded, how does the 48 1 Foundation Aid get out to school districts 2 and schools? Or let me just ask a more basic 3 question. Is the State Education Department 4 responsible for disbursing that aid to local 5 school districts? 6 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: Yes, 7 we are. 8 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Yes, we are. 9 So there are statutory requirements as 10 to payment requirements deadlines. And yes, 11 the State Education -- 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, can 13 you speak closer to the mic? 14 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Can you hear me? 15 Yes, the State Education Department -- 16 is that better? We have the office of 17 education finance that administers state aid 18 payments, and it's on a statutory payment 19 schedule. And yes, the Education Department 20 is responsible for working with OSC -- 21 SENATOR LIU: What is Foundation Aid? 22 NYSED CFO MORRIS: What is it? 23 SENATOR LIU: What is it? 24 NYSED CFO MORRIS: It's general 49 1 unrestricted operating aid for schools. 2 SENATOR LIU: A general what? 3 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Unrestricted 4 operating aid. 5 SENATOR LIU: Unrestricted. It's a 6 blank check? 7 NYSED CFO MORRIS: It can be used for 8 any appropriate educational purpose, correct. 9 It's flexible funding. It has to be used for 10 education, though. 11 SENATOR LIU: Okay. Unrestricted, but 12 it has to be appropriate. What's 13 appropriate? 14 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So there's 15 statutory provisions governing Foundation Aid 16 and how it's calculated and the way in which 17 school districts can use the -- 18 SENATOR LIU: My understanding is that 19 the origin of Foundation Aid was in response 20 to a lawsuit where the courts decided -- and 21 great thanks to my partner over here, 22 Senator Jackson -- that kids were not getting 23 a sound, basic education. 24 So my understanding of Foundation Aid 50 1 is that it is to provide for a sound, basic 2 education. Can you briefly describe what 3 that sound, basic education requirement is? 4 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Okay. So as 5 a person who testified during the CFE, and 6 being in the role at the time as a 7 superintendent, having been in the role of a 8 principal as well, and supporting the whole 9 issue of Foundation Aid, because of the fact 10 that we had students who had very weighted -- 11 in other words, they were within the 12 formula -- we wanted to make sure that the 13 funding was used specifically to address many 14 of the issues that were identified that 15 obviously were not cost-neutral. They 16 were -- these were issues that were -- we 17 were going to need additional funding to 18 support those individual students. 19 SENATOR LIU: You're talking about the 20 original lawsuit. And let's fast-forward to 21 2023. When the State Education Department 22 disburses the Foundation Aid to local school 23 districts, does it just simply send that 24 money out and that's the end of story, the 51 1 school districts basically are entrusted to 2 do whatever they need or want to do? 3 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: No, there 4 are specific -- okay, the formula has 5 specific amounts of dollars attached to 6 different students and different conditions 7 and different situations. 8 This is not a blanket -- to your 9 point, it's not a blanket check for -- 10 SENATOR LIU: What kind of information 11 does the State Education Department expect 12 back from a school district in terms of how 13 they use that funding? And more 14 specifically, I'm getting to the budgetary 15 language that we passed that talks about the 16 State Education Department holding school 17 districts accountable for how they use that 18 Foundation Aid. 19 So what does the State Education 20 Department do to hold districts accountable? 21 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So districts are 22 required to do -- provide extensive 23 reporting. They're required to report on 24 their budgeted expenses -- not just for 52 1 Foundation Aid, but all sources of school 2 aid. And also they're required to report on 3 their actual expenses at the end of the 4 school year. 5 We also, pursuant to language in the 6 enacted budget, have collected plans from 7 districts on their use of the Foundation Aid 8 increase, and those plans are on our website, 9 that detail how the increase is going to be 10 used by school year. So that information can 11 be found on our website. 12 SENATOR LIU: And can you maybe just 13 like -- maybe three top measures or top items 14 that they have to respond about, a school 15 district has to respond about? 16 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, yeah. 17 They -- okay. So if they have English 18 language learners, students with 19 disabilities, they also have to make sure 20 that in the formula, for example, economic 21 disadvantage -- all of these are categories 22 that when the plan is set -- and by the way, 23 it's not just -- you know, the funding is 24 very specific to those -- to those 53 1 categories. So that the way the money is 2 aligned has to be spent on those particular 3 situations. 4 So that even, you know, within the 5 formula, the district receives, based on 6 their student, their -- you know, we keep -- 7 you know, we take a look at the number of 8 students that are in that district. The only 9 time we -- there's some adjustment is to, you 10 know, hold harmless -- 11 SENATOR LIU: Well, one of the reasons 12 why -- one of the reasons why the courts 13 decided that kids were not getting a sound, 14 basic education was that they were stuffed in 15 oversized classrooms, too many kids in the 16 class. Does the State Education Department 17 monitor that at all? 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Okay, so in 19 the process of the conversation, the issue of 20 class size -- which I know we sent that over 21 as well -- we have been -- when that was put 22 in place, we have been monitoring, having 23 conversations. We even provided a report, 24 particularly for New York City, in terms of 54 1 class size. 2 Now, I will tell you, as somebody 3 who's gone throughout this state, size -- 4 class size, a local decision, is made at the 5 local level, and many school districts, in 6 terms of class size. And some of it is 7 affordability of what -- given the funding 8 that they receive, given their money. 9 I have gone from North Country, 10 whether it's Massena High School or even -- 11 SENATOR LIU: All right -- 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I'm just 13 saying that there are different class sizes. 14 SENATOR LIU: But, Commissioner, 15 you're saying that the State Education 16 Department is on top of the class size issue. 17 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Absolutely. 18 New York City, we have -- I think we 19 submitted a -- 20 SENATOR LIU: I will remind your whole 21 team, and I don't think any of you need 22 reminding, that Foundation Aid is to provide 23 that sound, basic education. And that court 24 ruling some years ago ruled that class 55 1 size -- that when class sizes are excessive, 2 that precludes providing a sound, basic 3 education. 4 So from the macro level, as opposed to 5 getting into the weeds on the formulas and 6 everything -- and I would expect that the 7 State Education Department be on top of what 8 the basic purpose of Foundation Aid is. And 9 that is to provide that sound, basic 10 education, which cannot be achieved when 11 classes are excessively large. 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Mm-hmm. 13 SENATOR LIU: Terrific. 14 You know, there's been a little bit of 15 discussion, if not controversy, about the 16 teaching of history -- in particular, what 17 the College Board deems to be history and 18 what students should be tested on. Who 19 decides what's on the Regents test for 20 history? 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: We do. We 22 have -- but we base it on standards. 23 Standards guides the work of how teachers, 24 who are intimately involved through -- 56 1 SENATOR LIU: Who decides what those 2 standards are, then? The Regents? 3 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: No. The 4 Regents -- the Regents have policymaking. We 5 as a department work with our department 6 staff on the standards work. We work with 7 our districts, we work with all of the 8 different stakeholders in terms of 9 representation. 10 SENATOR LIU: And what if there are 11 some people, a significant number of 12 New Yorkers, who feel that there are things 13 missing from the Regents standards or the 14 items taught in specifically the Regents -- 15 the history Regents? 16 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Right. So 17 we review -- we request funding, as you know, 18 to review our standards. As a matter of 19 fact, which is challenging, our health 20 standards, it's been 20 years. We have not 21 had the kind of support and funding. 22 I mean, this is the kind of work that 23 we constantly ask for support to review our 24 standards. Even now, when we asked this 57 1 year, as we're doing our work for grad 2 measures, one of the questions -- one of the 3 things we asked for is funding to support our 4 review of our standards. 5 SENATOR LIU: All right. Well, I know 6 you have held this as an important priority 7 of yours, but that it's -- from my 8 perspective as a member of the State Senate, 9 we need to do more and quicker. And 10 specifically, you know, after decades, 11 Asian-American history and experience is 12 still completely excluded from the Regents 13 exam, which is why it's not really integrated 14 in the teaching of history in our public 15 schools. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, John 17 Liu. 18 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You don't have 20 time to answer that one. Thank you. 21 Assembly. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 23 Assemblyman Smith, the ranker on Education, 24 for five minutes. 58 1 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you, 2 Madam Chair. 3 And thank you, Commissioner, for 4 joining us today. You're a true champion for 5 public education, and I appreciate how 6 accessible you've always been to members of 7 this body anytime we've had an issue. 8 I have a few things I want to ask you 9 about. As a parent of a 4-year-old who won a 10 lottery and got in the universal pre-K 11 program -- I know you've expressed a lot of 12 concerns about the fact that this program is 13 not universal. So I'd like to just ask -- 14 and my district, as you know, is suburban 15 Long Island, and I represent about six very 16 large central school districts. And some 17 issues that they're bringing to my attention 18 are that they're not able to utilize 19 universal pre-K funding to make capital 20 improvements, which actually is problematic 21 because some of them have shuttered old 22 buildings and they'd like to repurpose them 23 as UPK centers. 24 Do you have any thoughts on that or 59 1 some other things we should be looking at? 2 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yeah, this 3 is what I -- we have been having, just so you 4 know, part of our internal conversation of 5 why -- you know, I was very specific on 6 saying that the formula's broken. I didn't 7 say it needs tweaking or it -- it is broken. 8 When you look at the whole issue of -- 9 I already mentioned the 4410s. The lottery 10 process is -- the number of kids you have to 11 have in order to then, you know, make up and 12 make sure that you receive the funding. 13 We've had extensive conversations on this 14 issue. 15 In order to really, truly create -- we 16 have been creating more and more, in the last 17 couple of years, isolation, not integration. 18 So to respond to your question, the lottery, 19 the way that our formulas work, the reporting 20 system -- when superintendents have to make 21 these decisions about programmatic decisions 22 and different reporting and different costs 23 or whatever, those are the challenges that 24 leave -- leave us in a very difficult 60 1 position to support our superintendents and 2 our schools with these specific issues. 3 So I want to give you the budgetary 4 issue. 5 NYSED CFO MORRIS: But in terms of the 6 capital question, that's correct. The UPK, 7 the $25 million for UPK in the '22-'23 8 enacted budget, and the same $25 million 9 that's proposed for '23-'24, cannot be used 10 for capital construction. So it's not 11 possible for a district who lacks space to 12 serve preschoolers to be able to take 13 advantage of the funding. 14 And as the commissioner referenced 15 earlier, the $25 million from this year, when 16 we did the RFP, we only received $12 million 17 worth of applications. And we've had to do a 18 second RFP round for the remaining 13 19 million. And that process is open, so we 20 haven't yet -- we don't yet know what kind of 21 take-up rate we'll get on that. But when we 22 ask districts why didn't you apply, one of 23 the primary things we heard was "We don't 24 have space and we can't use the money for 61 1 capital projects." 2 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: And it's actually 3 hard because now if they want to make space, 4 they can't. So thank you for taking a look 5 at that. 6 Next up, school meals. I think we all 7 believe, as you mentioned, that it's 8 important that a child eats in order to teach 9 them. As somebody who was a former educator, 10 I know that that's a priority. I think it's 11 a priority for members of this house and both 12 houses. 13 So the Farm to School program, I don't 14 know if you're familiar -- yeah, of course. 15 So Long Island schools are having a difficult 16 time meeting that, being able to incorporate 17 30 percent of locally grown or New York-grown 18 efforts to include that. That includes, you 19 know, milk they're trying to buy. I think we 20 finally reached an agreement where they can 21 buy New York milk. A lot of them were 22 purchasing from New Jersey. 23 But the reimbursement -- so any 24 school, as you know, that can get 30 percent 62 1 from New York-grown products, their 2 reimbursement for school lunches go from a 3 nickel to 25 cents, which is great. 4 Is there any thought of regionalizing 5 this, perhaps, or making tweaks? Because I 6 know our schools would love to participate in 7 that. 8 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So two 9 parts. Because we do have an answer for you 10 on that one, because some flexibility has 11 been given, which is a good thing. 12 We did put in for the two -- 13 originally I think we put in 200 million, but 14 it turned out to be 280 million in order to 15 do the full package of universal free lunch. 16 We have been working very closely -- 17 as a matter of fact we had the undersecretary 18 come and we received some funding to really 19 look at nutrition as a key, key point. And 20 we're working with Commissioner Ball, as you 21 know, to really, really look at this -- the 22 Farm to School program, which is about a 23 million and a half. It's a program that we 24 support, we absolutely think it's phenomenal. 63 1 And now the good news is that we 2 have -- Phyllis will share -- some 3 flexibility in this issue in terms of your 4 question about using our farmers. 5 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Just one point of 6 clarification. That program was actually 7 moved to the Department of Agriculture & 8 Markets in '22-'23, so we're not 9 administering that program any longer. 10 Although we completely support it, as the 11 commissioner said. And there is language in 12 the Executive Budget that would address some 13 of the issues that we faced when -- 14 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you. And I 15 appreciate that, and hopefully we'll get a 16 final fix in the final budget. 17 Thank you for your time. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 19 We've been joined by Assemblywoman 20 Bichotte Hermelyn. 21 And now to the Senate. 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 23 And we've been joined by Senator Iwen 24 Chu, and I think Senators Stec and Weber 64 1 since you last made announcements. 2 SENATOR O'MARA: Yes. 3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 4 And our next questioner is Senator Jim 5 Tedisco, ranker, for five minutes. 6 SENATOR TEDISCO: Thank you. 7 Thank you, Commissioner, and all for 8 being here today, for your service, for 9 helping to move our educational system 10 forward. 11 I want to ask you a question -- 12 because we have limited time -- that a number 13 of parents have asked me to ask of you. It 14 may be a little bit theoretical, but I think 15 every parent who's concerned has an interest 16 in it. 17 If you had a child in school or even a 18 grandchild in school that was being bullied 19 day in and day out, would you want to be 20 notified of that? 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I heard part 22 of your question. Say it again? 23 SENATOR TEDISCO: If you had a child 24 in school that was being bullied, day in and 65 1 day out, would you as a parent want to be 2 notified of that? 3 I mean, we're asking a tremendous 4 amount of our parents -- come to PTA 5 meetings, meet with your teachers, help us 6 with IEPs, help us with the curriculum. But 7 we don't have a law that says when they're 8 reported to the State Education Department, 9 that a bully -- which is mandated, that 10 bullying has taken place for a child. And 11 it's not only being notified if your child is 12 being bullied, but notified if your child is 13 the one who's doing the bullying. 14 Would you not want to be notified? 15 And wouldn't it be important for that to 16 happen? 17 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Absolutely. 18 And I think part of what we're 19 doing -- we have been spending also a great 20 deal of time, I'm sure you're aware, both on 21 the discipline issue. We've done a lot of 22 work over the last 18 months with the 23 Department of Health. CFSS has really been 24 working closely with us in terms of a task 66 1 force and some of the recommendations, and 2 we've been -- as a matter of fact, we've 3 done -- we did last month a presentation 4 about some of their recommendations and how 5 we're going to be using this. 6 But yes, the bullying -- but it's not 7 just -- it's not just being notified about 8 it. It's really how do schools develop -- 9 not just informational, but create the kinds 10 of culture where these actions are addressed. 11 You know, it's one thing to be notified. As 12 a parent, I would go in and say, What is 13 being done, whether it's my kid doing it or 14 if my child is the victim of it -- 15 SENATOR TEDISCO: Being addressed I 16 would think would be notifying the parents. 17 Because -- 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: That's the 19 beginning. 20 SENATOR TEDISCO: Listen, when I was 21 in school -- you're much younger than me -- 22 bullying was a whole different dynamic. It 23 might stop at the school door, the school 24 gate, the school streets; when you got home, 67 1 you were okay. 2 It doesn't work that way anymore. 3 It's on the websites, it's on social media. 4 They can destroy a person's life, a young 5 child's life. And it's happening because -- 6 I got a boy named Jacobe Taras, as I know I 7 told you about the Taras family. They had no 8 idea their son's head was being rammed into 9 lockers, he was being hit and beaten and 10 bullied every single day in school. 11 Jacobe took his own life, and his 12 parents found out later on he was being 13 bullied. That school was not mandated to 14 tell them what was going on day in and day 15 out. 16 Now, some schools do. Yeah, they do a 17 good job, notify parents, want to bring you 18 in, notify the parents of the child doing the 19 bullying. But why isn't that holistic, that 20 if you're going to tell a bureaucrat at the 21 State Education Department, you're not 22 telling a parent, when we're telling the 23 parents: Be involved in your child's school 24 system, come in and speak to the teachers. 68 1 But don't require them to know that -- 2 I mean, anybody in this room, I would ask you 3 to raise your hand if you would not know that 4 your child is being bullied in school. I 5 don't -- when we passed this in the New York 6 State Senate, which it passed almost 7 unanimously, I asked that same question. 8 Nobody raised their hand. Everybody would 9 want to know and take part in the 10 decision-making. 11 I don't understand why that can't 12 exist right now. I understand you want to 13 make a better setting, you want to stop the 14 bullying that takes place. But to make that 15 happen, I think parents and the school system 16 have an obligation to be part of the team 17 that does that. 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Absolutely. 19 Yeah, we work with our school 20 districts. Remember, you know, one of the 21 things that is misunderstood a lot of times 22 is the local control. And many decisions at 23 the local control are made -- you have school 24 boards, you have a superintendent, you have 69 1 school policies, you -- they develop their 2 plans. 3 We do a lot -- a great deal of work, 4 whether it's through culturally responsive, 5 whether it's through using many of our 6 workshops, in trying to encourage parents, 7 not only -- not just parents, but our 8 schools, not only to inform but, you know, 9 look at the signs. We've developed surveys, 10 we've developed guiding documents that are on 11 our website. Make sure that the signs that 12 you are seeing are signs that you're 13 utilizing to address those issues. 14 And we have ongoing conversations with 15 our superintendents to do this good work. 16 SENATOR TEDISCO: Thank you, 17 Commissioner. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 19 Assembly. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 21 Assemblyman Slater, the ranker on Libraries, 22 for five minutes. 23 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Good morning, 24 Commissioner. Thank you for joining us 70 1 today. 2 I do -- I'm a father with two small 3 children, one in elementary school and one 4 soon to be. But as the ranker on the 5 Library Committee, I'll be focused on that 6 subject matter this morning. 7 In December there was an Assembly 8 hearing regarding libraries, and obviously 9 the issue of the outdated facilities that 10 many of our libraries currently have were 11 brought up. And it was stated that there was 12 a need of over a billion dollars. And I can 13 tell you that back in my hometown, our 14 library, which I believe is one of the best 15 in the region, is in a facility that dates 16 back to the Civil War. 17 And so when I see the Governor propose 18 cutting construction aid to libraries, I get 19 very, very concerned. I'm wondering if you 20 can just expand on your viewpoint on this 21 topic and how this is going to impact SED's 22 ability in fostering greater accessibility to 23 these important educational and cultural 24 hubs. 71 1 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, I 2 think you saw the Regents are so committed to 3 this issue. Our cultural group talks about 4 this constantly. The libraries are 5 fundamental, they're key, as you know. And 6 you heard me share before, we keep advancing 7 the issue of investment. You have to invest 8 in this area, both infrastructure, building. 9 As we know, you have to have the upkeep. 10 Building infrastructure, equipment, 11 they have to stay current. When children go 12 the library, you really want not only a 13 welcoming place but a place that really, 14 truly expands the learning process. This is 15 a platform that we all believe in as an 16 extension of our schooling. It is not -- you 17 know, it is not outside up, it is a 18 connector, it is an extension of the very 19 issue of learning. 20 For our department, learning is the 21 core. And if learning is the core, museums, 22 libraries, all these external opportunities 23 are very much a part of the fabric. And you 24 say, I think, we had expanded -- I think it 72 1 was 45 we had asked. 2 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Mm-hmm. Yes. 3 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And instead, 4 we went in the other direction. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Right. 6 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So I'm 7 hoping that there's advocacy around this 8 issue. And not only advocacy on behalf of 9 our children, but on behalf of our adults, 10 who also use them, and our senior citizens 11 and our community. It is a hub in our -- 12 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: My other concern, 13 obviously, is the impact on construction 14 costs of inflation. So if we're decreasing 15 the amount of money that's going to -- and 16 obviously modernizing and enhancing these 17 facilities, how are we going to make up that 18 shortfall? I don't know if you have any 19 thoughts on how we might be able to achieve 20 that. 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, 22 we're -- we're not. It's going to be very, 23 very difficult. 24 You know, I have to say -- and I know 73 1 I sit here and say -- you know, we talk about 2 all of the money that we invest. Well, think 3 about all the money that we invest in 4 incarceration. Think about all the money 5 that we invest in other things other than the 6 foundational early start, early learning, 7 building on that. And yes, does it cost 8 money? Absolutely. But at the end of the 9 day, if we're not preventive, we're going to 10 be reacting. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Right. 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And so 13 libraries are very much a part of this 14 formula. So thank you for bringing that up. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Absolutely. And 16 if I could, with my remaining time, I just 17 want to pivot to NOVEL. The Assembly 18 Libraries Committee -- again, going back to 19 that December hearing -- heard from New York 20 City school librarians that it's a critical 21 resource for public school students and that 22 it should be expanded. I'm just curious if 23 you have plans to maintain access to the 24 database and expand it beyond its current 74 1 capacity. 2 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yes. Yes. 3 Go ahead. 4 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: So as 5 you know, NOVEL is funded by a federal grant, 6 grant dollars to the State Library, and this 7 federal funding has been increased at a rate. 8 But the department advanced a priority budget 9 request this year to increase the current fee 10 for the cultural fund account, and this fee 11 would increase and hopefully stabilize and 12 give us the ability to keep those databases 13 in place. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: And expand. 15 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: And 16 expand, yes. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Great. Thank you 18 very much. Appreciate your time here today. 19 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: No 20 problem. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been -- 22 thank you. We've been joined by 23 Assemblywoman Seawright. 24 Now to the Senate. 75 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 2 Senator Robert Jackson. 3 SENATOR JACKSON: Good morning. 4 Commissioner, how are you? 5 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Good. 6 SENATOR JACKSON: Good to see you and 7 all of your team. 8 So first I wanted to thank you for 9 mentioning about the $1 million for upgrading 10 the Foundation Aid formula and explaining -- 11 or not about that, but the process when money 12 is allocated in the budget. As you 13 indicated, you have to go through the washing 14 machine and dryer and come back out, and you 15 hang it up, and still it takes so long, and 16 people don't understand that. 17 And so we collectively, the State of 18 New York, have to do a better job in moving 19 that process around. So I wanted to thank 20 you for explaining that. 21 But also I wanted to talk about the 22 implications of the Governor's proposal of 23 eliminating the regional caps and basically 24 opening the door for over possibly a hundred 76 1 charter schools coming to New York City. And 2 understanding the law that has been in place 3 since Bloomberg and former Governor Andrew 4 Cuomo were in place, that a charter school 5 can then expand, and that can mean up to 6 300 charters. 7 What type of impact, in your opinion 8 as a professional that had worked in the 9 New York City school system many years ago, 10 and as the commissioner, what impact would 11 that have on New York City as far as reducing 12 class size and as far as the budgetary 13 process goes? 14 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Okay, so let 15 me start with the notion that this -- our 16 state has two systems in place: SUNY and our 17 Regents, our board. 18 We have -- and Phyllis will correct me 19 if I'm wrong, I think we have approved about 20 97 charters, versus 271. Don't hold me to 21 that number, but I think that's -- there are 22 about 19 -- and I know some people reported 23 23, but there are 19 zombies that have been 24 closed. We receive zero dollars to support 77 1 our process in the charter -- in our charter 2 space. I think the Governor has 3 four-point -- I want to say 4.8 million 4 that's given to the SUNY Institute. So we 5 have to do with whatever. 6 Now, having said that, we are looking 7 at what was proposed. To a great extent I'm 8 not even sure what the thinking is, given the 9 student reduction in New York City. My 10 understanding -- and again, this is limited 11 research. I don't have all the details. But 12 the limited research we have, we're not sure 13 because I think even with two charters 14 that -- we still have like 12 charters that 15 haven't even opened. Those are just from our 16 internal conversations. 17 So again, I would ask the Governor's 18 staff to help understand what the thinking is 19 with this expansion. 20 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 22 Assembly. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been 24 joined by Assemblyman Kim, and we go to 78 1 Assemblywoman Buttenschon for three minutes. 2 Marianne? 3 (Inaudible discussion off the record.) 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: Thank you. 5 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Utica! 6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: Yes. 7 Thank you so much to you and your team 8 for being here today. 9 I just have a few questions, so I'll 10 provide them. I'm from the Mohawk Valley, as 11 you stated. We have a lot of advanced 12 manufacturing, and the concern with the 13 P-TECH is very concerning to us. So clearly 14 you discussed that, and just to reconfirm the 15 importance of that. 16 I also have heard from many regarding 17 class size. And I know my colleague talked 18 about the class size in his area. The 19 request was to have a regional approach to 20 looking at class sizes. For example, as we 21 face the challenges for K-3, we're seeing 22 that those class sizes are at 30. And 23 clearly that is not something that is 24 conducive to the Mohawk Valley. 79 1 And finally, you address in your 2 testimony that your IT is facing a crisis, 3 and the discussion about moving some of that 4 credentialing to the DOH when one is in a 5 crisis sounds like it would work on a 6 temporary basis. My office receives numerous 7 calls in regards to the credentialing and the 8 inability for that process to move forward as 9 we're trying to determine how we can keep our 10 faculty within the primary and secondary 11 education moving right into streamlining as 12 quick as possible. And that program is -- 13 teaches -- seems to be that lack of 14 responsiveness that you had addressed 15 earlier. 16 So my question with that is you have 17 $2.6 million allocated for new positions. 18 Does that include the software upgrades? Or 19 will there need to be additional funding? 20 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So let me 21 start; you have a lot of questions in 22 different buckets. 23 I'm going to start by -- you made the 24 comment about yes, our infrastructure -- and 80 1 I did speak to that -- needs work. We 2 continue to do our work. That does not 3 mean -- because we obviously have OP funding 4 that -- our own money. We're funding our 5 own -- using our own fees to upgrade our own 6 OP. Your question was about moving it. We 7 haven't even done a feasibility. So just -- 8 just -- I'm not so sure that -- I shouldn't 9 say I'm not so sure. I am sure that moving 10 staffing and responsibilities and issues on a 11 given month -- and the Board of Regents -- we 12 can have as many as 45 months. So there's a 13 complexity around that issue that just moving 14 one issue is really -- and I've already said 15 to even the new -- I spoke briefly to the 16 staff that's involved with the new 17 Commissioner McDonald and said we're willing 18 to meet, we want to take a look, we want to 19 make things better, but not -- movement is 20 not something I can support. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: Thank you. 22 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And I know 23 you have a series of questions -- 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BUTTENSCHON: We'll talk 81 1 later. 2 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: -- that I 3 should review. We're willing to meet and 4 take each of those questions and help, you 5 know, the situation so that we mutually 6 understand what we go through in terms of our 7 process. Thank you. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 9 To the Senate. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 Senator Murray, ranker, for five 12 minutes. 13 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you very much. 14 And thank you for being here. 15 As the ranker on Libraries, I was 16 going to ask about the library funding, but 17 my Assembly colleagues, Assemblywoman Woerner 18 and Assemblyman Slater, did a great job with 19 that. So I'm going to shift gears a little 20 to something else near and dear to my heart, 21 and that is BOCES and CTE programs. 22 And in your written testimony here, 23 under the College and Career Pathways, 24 there's a line that says "Programs that 82 1 successfully prepare students for college, 2 careers and civic life remain a priority of 3 the Regents and the department." I want to 4 thank you so much for saying "and" instead of 5 "or." There's a stigma out there that -- and 6 many of my colleagues unwittingly perpetuate 7 the stigma when they voice their support for 8 CTE or BOCES by saying, you know, not all 9 kids are going to go to college, so we have 10 to have alternatives like BOCES and CTE. 11 Well, it's not an alternative. It can be 12 both. So programs like the one you're 13 proposing -- well, first we have P-TECH and 14 ECHS. But you're proposing the college 15 credit and career opportunity program. Can 16 you tell us a little more about that? And do 17 you think that will address that stigma? 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Okay. So I 19 am so grateful that -- I have been saying 20 "and." How many, even yesterday -- we had 21 two students present during our presentation 22 with the grad measure, and it's really about 23 "and." If I decide to go to college, I -- 24 the skills that they talked about were skills 83 1 that you're going to use in college and 2 whatever. 3 But I'm going to let the expert, who's 4 done this work here in our own backyard, to 5 do the "and," not the "or." 6 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So 7 there are a couple of components of this. 8 The Board of Regents have adopted a goal that 9 by 2030 any student who wishes to have access 10 to a career-type ed program, a career/tech ed 11 high school program, will have that access. 12 That is currently not the case in this state. 13 Two components of it. One is to 14 significantly increase the aid that is 15 provided to school districts when they send 16 their students to a BOCES program or, for the 17 Big 5, when they provide career and technical 18 education to their students. That is one 19 component. 20 The other component relates to P-TECH 21 and the Early College High School program. 22 What we have found, based upon a survey that 23 was requested by the Legislature and the 24 Governor, is that with respect to the P-TECH 84 1 programs, there are mixed results, there are 2 some significant attrition issues, especially 3 in Year 4. What we have proposed is that the 4 funding for Early College High School and 5 P-TECH be combined and that we allow school 6 districts and BOCES, working with businesses 7 in their regions, to propose programs that 8 reflect the needs of that region, rather than 9 separating this arbitrarily. 10 There are P-TECH programs that are 11 highly successful. There are many that are 12 financially struggling. Again, the way in 13 which we have structured these programs leads 14 to some of that financial struggle. 15 So that is, in summary, how we see 16 fulfilling that goal that we dramatically 17 expand access to career technical education. 18 I was a district superintendent of a 19 BOCES. I had -- in excess of 40 percent of 20 our students in our career/tech ed programs, 21 had IEPs. The graduation rate for those 22 students far exceeded what it would be in a 23 traditional program. 24 We have a regional technical high 85 1 school, Tech Valley High School. Every 2 student graduates from Tech Valley 3 High School. 4 SENATOR MURRAY: That's great. 5 And I like that plan. But I want to 6 address this too. The problem with 7 instructors right now at BOCES or CTE, 8 there's a limit, a cap on how much -- 9 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yes. 10 SENATOR MURRAY: And it's been that 11 way for, what, 30 years? We've -- can you 12 speak to keeping some of these quality 13 instructors when we have that cap. 14 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Right. And 15 it's not just a cap, but every single program 16 we've looked at, kids tell you they want -- 17 they're so much more successful in college as 18 a result of having -- you know why? Because 19 at the end of the day -- all of us talk about 20 the standards. These are applied standards. 21 The kids feel it. They touch it. They know 22 it. They can measure it. 23 The standards are good, but these are 24 opportunities to do projects, to put your 86 1 hands in it, understand it conceptually by 2 experiencing it. There is no -- there's 3 nothing more successful than kids really 4 fully getting that "aha" moment because 5 you've taken the standards and you've applied 6 them. That's what that does. 7 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you for your 8 focus on this. I appreciate it. Thank you. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 We go to Assemblyman Jensen. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: Thank you very 12 much, Madam Chair. 13 I just want to circle back to 14 something Ranking Member Slater said in 15 regards to NOVEL and confirm there are no 16 plans by SED to eliminate this database 17 moving forward, there's no announcements 18 planned to announce its elimination. Is that 19 correct? 20 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: Well, 21 there is a funding issue, so it's -- 22 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: So if the money 23 goes through in the budget, then that will 24 cancel any existing plans that you have to 87 1 eliminate this critical database? 2 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: That 3 is correct. Yes. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: Okay. Thank you. 5 Pivoting to special education, we've 6 heard from -- in my community and across the 7 state that there's an Early Intervention 8 services gap. And what is the correlation 9 that SED is seeing between the lack of access 10 for Early Intervention services and then the 11 ability of students to access and see success 12 in special education classes and services? 13 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So we -- in 14 the information we gave you, clearly we are 15 big supporters of trying to create inclusive 16 programs early on. I mean, ideally I think 17 we said something like 2035, we'd love to see 18 that with the 3-year-olds, right? 19 Because, again, building that 20 foundation we know is critical. 21 Identification, whether it's kids who have 22 dyslexia, kids that really are having 23 challenges -- and if we can address them, the 24 earlier we can address them, the -- we can 88 1 develop not an IEP down the road, but we can 2 develop through play therapy -- you know, the 3 experiences that they have -- we can develop 4 the opportunities to really create 5 opportunities for adjustment, whether it's 6 schooling, whether it's, you know, some of 7 the things that children need to experience 8 as a result of their disabilities, whatever 9 the disability is. 10 I truly believe that the early 11 investments is critical, because we really 12 have to capture them at that point. And many 13 of the early childhood programs have, as I've 14 already said, all of these funding issues 15 that really don't allow the programmatic 16 part, which is what you're talking about, to 17 allow us to develop and respond to the 18 strategies, the programmatic designs. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: So, Commissioner, 20 I don't want chairwoman Weinstein to throw a 21 gavel at me, so just quickly -- 22 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Oh, I'm 23 sorry. 24 (Laughter.) 89 1 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: -- quickly, is 2 there sufficient oversight from SED onto the 3 schools to ensure that the screening, when a 4 child enters the public education system, for 5 those IEPs is sufficient enough? Because 6 I've heard from my community that for 7 screening for things like dyslexia, there is 8 not a sufficient or standardized screening 9 process. 10 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Right. 11 Well, what happens is in -- obviously in 12 special -- my background is special 13 education. So in special ed there are very 14 specific laws, right, of, you know, 15 placement, identification and placement. If 16 it doesn't fall into -- and we can talk about 17 it. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN JENSEN: Okay, thank you. 19 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: But I'm more 20 than glad to bring my special ed team and 21 talk about those very specific -- because 22 these are issues that we may want to address 23 differently as a result of placement, 24 identification process, CSE and all that 90 1 stuff. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 3 We go to Senator Hoylman. 4 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you. 5 Good to see you, Commissioner, and 6 your team. 7 I wanted to talk about book bannings. 8 You know, across the country there's been an 9 attack on public school libraries. States 10 like Florida, North Dakota are banning books 11 more and more publicly than we've seen in 12 quite a long time. And I think that most 13 people in this room and certainly most of my 14 constituents would agree that New York has to 15 take a stand against these dangerous book 16 bannings and defend the right for students to 17 read what they want to read. 18 There's a book called Gender Queer: A 19 Memoir -- an award-winning book, by the way, 20 by Maia Kobabe -- which has been banned in 21 school libraries from Long Island to the 22 Hudson Valley. My question is, do we know 23 how many books have been banned in New York 24 State by public school libraries? 91 1 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I'm looking 2 at the person who oversees that. 3 We can get back to you on that. I'm 4 not sure. I do know that there's a movement 5 in different communities. And it's not 6 universal, I will tell you that. Depending 7 on the community, you do see some -- whether 8 it's parents getting involved with the 9 librarians and the school board and the -- 10 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Well, I would 11 urge you -- thank you. I would urge you to 12 keep a census of the books that have been 13 banned and publish that information for the 14 public and for public officials to know. 15 Secondly, is there a criteria at the 16 state level for the banning of a book in 17 New York public school libraries? 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: We do not as 19 a state. 20 I will tell you this. We have 21 absolutely not supported any issue that is 22 specific to, you know, book -- I mean, we 23 have not -- we have not had any conversations 24 about banning books at all. 92 1 We have seen it, as I shared with you, 2 at the local level. So -- but I will go back 3 to our state librarian and get you the 4 numbers. I -- I do not believe that we have 5 a list of books that -- from the state -- 6 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: My second 7 question, in the last 30 seconds: Are you 8 considering, as Mayor Adams and Chancellor 9 Banks have said, to screen students with -- 10 for dyslexia at the K through third-grade 11 level? In my remaining minutes, I'll tell 12 you I have a daughter, she's 12. She's 13 dyslexic. We did not learn she was dyslexic 14 until she was in the fourth grade. Frankly, 15 that was five years too late. 16 There's a screener, one that is -- has 17 been put forth by the eminent researcher 18 Sally Shaywitz which costs $1.25 per student 19 to administer and takes less than five 20 minutes. Any intention or plan to screen 21 students for dyslexia across the State of 22 New York? 23 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Again, 24 that's a -- that's a CSE issue. 93 1 But I will tell you, we have had 2 several meetings on this issue with experts 3 on dyslexia, and we've had many of your 4 colleagues join us during those meetings. 5 And my two godchildren were identified early, 6 and both of them are in phenomenal colleges 7 at this point because it was addressed early. 8 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Well, that's 9 inspiring. I'd love to work with you on 10 that. Thank you so much. 11 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Thank you. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you, 13 Commissioner, Senator. 14 We go to Assemblyman Otis. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you, Chair. 16 Thank you, Commissioner. Nice to see 17 you. Thank you for all your great work. 18 I have three topics. I'll sort of hit 19 them quickly at the beginning, and you can 20 fit in them what you can. 21 Number one, digital inclusion. In 22 2021, SED did a great job of having a series 23 of webinars about digital inclusion not just 24 in the schools but more broadly. And you're 94 1 doing great programs through the State 2 Library system. So the question is, are you 3 looking to -- for additional funds to do that 4 work? But also, what are you hearing from 5 school districts about digital inclusion gaps 6 for their students? 7 The other two topics, very briefly: 8 Special Act school districts. How -- what 9 kind of access do you have with the financial 10 information of these Special Act school 11 districts that are in jeopardy? And don't we 12 need a separate funding stream, not through 13 the school districts but direct aid from the 14 state, to deal with the financial stability 15 of those schools? 16 Topic number three, mental health. I 17 would suggest we do mental health funding not 18 through a grant program but through a direct 19 funding stream, experience-based aid. 20 Good luck with my remaining time, but 21 thank you. 22 (Laughter.) 23 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yeah, we're 24 going to -- whatever we can't get to, we 95 1 promise you -- and you know you always reach 2 out to us for specific questions and 3 dialogue. So whatever we can't get to, we'll 4 set up a meeting. 5 Okay, we'll start with libraries. 6 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: So to 7 your first question about digital inclusion, 8 the answer is yes, we would love to. 9 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Okay. 10 Phyllis, number two? 11 NYSED CFO MORRIS: On Special Acts, so 12 we have long advocated, the Regents and the 13 department, for funding for tuition 14 rate-setting reform. There is funding in the 15 Executive Budget, a $2.5 million 16 appropriation, which is the amount that we 17 asked for, and that would include funding for 18 the Special Acts in that rate methodology 19 review, because that's how Special Acts are 20 currently funded. 21 But the challenge with the language in 22 the budget is that it would severely 23 constrain our ability to come up with a 24 methodology that actually would be responsive 96 1 to provider needs, particularly for the 2 Special Acts that have unique challenges with 3 having to meet public school requirements 4 while also being funded through the tuition 5 rate-setting methodology. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: I just can suggest 7 on that, one of the problems is these schools 8 have different levels of financial 9 insecurity, and there needs to be a way to 10 assess that so we know how we can then get 11 direct funds to remedy that. 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And that's 13 to the formula. Specifically, in looking at 14 the formula, what Phyllis was talking 15 about -- and I'll just mention one example. 16 You know, when you have a cost-neutral issue, 17 that's a problem. Right? 18 But to your point, we are -- you know, 19 as I shared earlier, we're sending kids out, 20 costing -- we have a cost analysis we'll give 21 you as well, of what it costs when we send 22 kids out versus trying to create programs 23 within. But we do have what I call Exhibit A 24 to share with you. 97 1 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Great. We'll catch 2 up on mental health at another time. 3 Thank you. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 To the Senate. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 7 Senator Weik. 8 SENATOR WEIK: Thank you. Good 9 morning. 10 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Good 11 morning. 12 SENATOR WEIK: Thank you so much for 13 being here and for all the information that 14 you've given us today. I'm so glad to hear 15 that my concerns have been kind of already 16 brought up, and that's literacy. 17 So one of the things I hear throughout 18 my district all the time are what are we 19 doing to make sure that our students can 20 read, and reading comprehension. I can quote 21 statistics from the National Center of 22 Education Statistics that tell us that in 23 New York State our reading comprehension, our 24 literacy skills, have declined in this 98 1 century. 2 And we can look at statistics that say 3 that dyslexia affects 20 percent of the 4 population, representing 80 to 90 percent of 5 all of those with learning disabilities. And 6 that's those who have been diagnosed. Most 7 of our students are struggling through school 8 with an inability to read, and reading 9 comprehension is a big struggle for them. 10 But they haven't been diagnosed with any kind 11 of reading or learning disability, which 12 really puts those students at a disadvantage. 13 So I'd just like to know -- you know, 14 I'm looking at some of these statistics and 15 I'm trying to be sensitive to time, because 16 I'd really like to know, what can we do? 17 We're looking at some of our neighboring 18 states, Massachusetts, New Jersey. Their 19 scores are higher than ours, and they've 20 remained there. But New York State seems to 21 see a steady decline in this century. Which 22 is troubling, with all of the abilities that 23 we have. 24 What can we do to make sure that our 99 1 students, one, are learning to read, and that 2 they have good reading comprehension skills? 3 Because as we develop STEM and technology and 4 so on, if you can't read and you have a lack 5 of the ability to -- reading comprehension, 6 you're not going to be able to excel at any 7 of these. 8 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, I'm 9 going to add, too, one other element that we 10 haven't talked about in this room. We have a 11 larger population than Massachusetts and 12 other places of ELL students. I mean, we are 13 a hub for many of our English language 14 students. But that's another sign. 15 Also, I will tell you -- again, there 16 are districts that do a better job. And when 17 I say district, as well as the state -- so we 18 all have to be in this together -- do a 19 better job in terms of early identification. 20 And that's why we're pushing this early 21 childhood situation. And it's not just 22 dyslexia, that's one major -- but it's also 23 some of the other learning blocks. And also 24 leaning on the issue of brain research. We 100 1 really have to really have an opportunity to 2 take stock of how that informs the way 3 students learn. 4 SENATOR WEIK: I know. So I have 5 three children who have been in school and, 6 you know, have graduated and moved on. And 7 so, you know, when they -- there's really no 8 opportunity for them to be screened. And if 9 they are screened, the schools tend to push 10 them off and push them back into the 11 classroom without offering them services. 12 How can we remedy that? 13 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, that's 14 the whole situation with the prevention, 15 rather than having to be identified in order 16 to receive services. 17 So we really have to do a much better 18 job in terms of our dollars, looking at the 19 prevention side of identification screening, 20 early screening, identification of 21 responsibilities and responding to the needs. 22 More than glad to continue this 23 conversation. 24 SENATOR WEIK: Thank you. 101 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 3 Pirozzolo. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: Good morning, 5 Commissioner. 6 I remember being quite happy when you 7 first became commissioner, and I'll let you 8 know if that happiness still exists today. 9 But the level of frustration that I had back 10 then and I have now is probably even more so. 11 And I'm happy to be a member of the Assembly 12 so that we can possibly work on these issues. 13 So thank you for the long haul being here. 14 And I'd like to speak to you today 15 about charter schools, and I'd like to speak 16 to you about them through the eyes that I've 17 gotten as my children and myself have gone 18 through the public education system. 19 When my children first became eligible 20 to go to public school, I wound up becoming 21 the president of Community Education Council, 22 of CEC 31, Staten Island. And I will tell 23 you that there probably was no more of a 24 stronger opponent of charter schools than I 102 1 was. But being the CEC president and having 2 my children go to schools in areas where you 3 might be surprised where my children went to 4 school, I got to see firsthand some of the 5 difficulties that our schools have. But not 6 only on Staten Island, but when we go to 7 different areas of New York City. We have 8 schools where 95 percent of our students 9 don't read, don't write, can't do math at 10 grade level. And that's the statistic before 11 COVID. I'd hate to see what it is after 12 COVID. 13 I came to see that charter schools 14 actually save lives. They take these 15 students who only have the option of going to 16 a school where 95 percent of them cannot meet 17 the state standard -- which is a whole 18 different subject, right? 19 So if charter schools save lives, and 20 if they are public schools, and our New York 21 City public schools grow as communities come 22 in -- if a building becomes available, we 23 open a school; we do it as needed -- why can 24 we not open a public charter school as 103 1 needed? Why is there this cap? You know, 2 charter schools do save lives, especially of 3 the communities who have failed the most -- 4 our minority communities, our immigrant 5 communities, communities of color, of poor 6 economic status and of unfortunately the 7 wrong zip code. 8 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So let me 9 start by saying that -- I'm sorry. Obviously 10 this is a debate. There is a law in place in 11 terms of a cap. You know, I mean, that's the 12 law. I push back on the lawmakers, right? 13 That's a law. 14 But even beyond that, let me just say 15 in terms of charter schools, just like public 16 schools, there are amazing charter schools 17 and there are charter schools that we've had 18 to close. Structurally there are some key 19 issues -- you use the term "public." You 20 know, it's public schools -- I mean, they're 21 run, in many cases -- some of them, not all 22 of them, are run like private schools. So 23 you have to be honest also and look at this 24 issue across the board. 104 1 I have many kids who come back into 2 the public school system as a result of not 3 being able to get the services -- special ed 4 services, English language learner services. 5 But in addition to that, the structure is 6 such that there's a return policy. Public 7 schools don't have return policies. 8 But let me go one more issue. The 9 issue of charter schools is -- the debate 10 that we're having about charter schools is 11 the issue of having -- making sure that 12 there's transparency, financial transparency. 13 I have no -- I can't get financial 14 transparency. 15 The other issue with charter schools 16 as well is that we really have to make sure 17 that their numbers of special needs and ELL 18 students and others look the same as the 19 neighborhood. You know? And I do have to 20 say the one -- the one issue, and this is the 21 issue that I always think about, I look for 22 charter schools in communities other than 23 color. And I always say if it's good enough 24 for communities -- if it's such a wonderful 105 1 experiment, then let me see it in places that 2 embrace it other than communities of color. 3 And I will tell you, the amount of 4 charter schools that are focused on 5 communities of color is huge. But I've yet 6 to see it in some of the places that you and 7 I would probably say if it's such a great 8 experiment, show it to me and why aren't 9 other people embracing it. Good things are 10 embraced by everybody, not just some. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 12 thank you, Commissioner. 13 We go to the Senate now. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 Senator Martinez. 16 SENATOR MARTINEZ: Good morning. 17 Right here (waving). 18 I just wanted to follow up on the 19 bullying question. (Waving.) Hello. 20 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Sorry -- 21 (Laughter; inaudible overtalk.) 22 SENATOR MARTINEZ: -- that a colleague 23 of mine mentioned before. 24 As a former educator myself and a 106 1 coordinator of DASA, I would like to have 2 more information on what is actually taking 3 place after the schools are reporting any 4 type of intimidation, discrimination, 5 bullying, and so forth. 6 And the reason I also bring this up 7 after my colleague did is because I recently 8 met with a parent whose daughter took her 9 life because of bullying. And many 10 complaints were put in, many forms were 11 submitted, but when they actually looked at 12 the DASA reporting, the reporting seemed as 13 if it was flawed. And obviously we don't 14 want our schools to be afraid to report, 15 because they may feel that they're being 16 targeted. 17 What are we doing once those reports 18 get to the department? How are we helping 19 our schools to make sure that they have the 20 proper resources to assist the building 21 itself with our students who are going 22 through this tough time within the schools? 23 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We 24 have an office within the State Education 107 1 Department that focuses on these issues. 2 That office provides training opportunities, 3 technical assistance and other resources to 4 schools that are dealing with student 5 behavior issues. 6 SENATOR MARTINEZ: Are you -- 7 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I 8 would also point out that the Regents' policy 9 on diversity, equity and inclusion, our 10 culturally responsive and sustaining 11 education framework, also relate to the 12 cultural issues that we find in schools. 13 You know, part of what we are trying 14 to do with these policies, with this 15 framework is to create environments of mutual 16 respect. And unfortunately in our society we 17 all know that respect is not always mutual. 18 What we are trying to do and what we're doing 19 with our school districts is providing them 20 with resources and with information that they 21 can use to foster those communities of 22 respect within our school buildings, within 23 our high schools. 24 SENATOR MARTINEZ: But what are you 108 1 doing with the forms when they're being 2 submitted? Are you reviewing them -- 3 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The 4 forms -- the data is compiled and the data 5 informs decision-making. We just had a 6 committee that looked at school safety, 7 school discipline issues. The data has been 8 collected over those years was part of what 9 was considered as that committee went about 10 its work and made its recommendations. 11 SENATOR MARTINEZ: And do you look at 12 the suspension rate versus what is being put 13 into these forms? Because usually when 14 you're suspending a child, unfortunately, 15 it's based on something that took place. 16 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We 17 clearly looked at suspension rates. And one 18 of the things we have found is that the use 19 of suspension is disproportionate, and that 20 that has not changed over an extended period 21 of time here in New York State. 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank -- I'm 23 sorry, we're going to cut that off. 24 Thank you. Assembly. 109 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 2 We go to Assemblywoman Mary Beth 3 Walsh, three minutes. 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Thank you very 5 much. 6 Good morning, and thank you for being 7 here. My questions are going to center 8 around the idea of the teacher shortage and 9 what could be done. Two parts, if we could 10 get to it. 11 Last year's Executive Budget proposal 12 included provisions to allow individuals to 13 obtain a temporary professional permit if 14 they were in the process of obtaining a full 15 certification from your department. Do you 16 believe that this proposal should be 17 revisited to alleviate the current -- or help 18 to alleviate the current shortage? 19 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 20 We opposed that provision last year because 21 we felt that it would create more 22 difficulties than it would address. 23 And I also want to talk a bit about 24 what we've done in terms of the certification 110 1 process. We have undertaken a review of the 2 teacher certification process. We have made 3 a significant number of adjustments in terms 4 of the requirements for teacher 5 certification. There is a very long list of 6 items that have been submitted to the Board 7 of Regents, and the Board of Regents has, 8 without exception, approved those reforms to 9 the teacher certification system. 10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: And those are 11 designed to streamline the process to make it 12 faster? 13 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 14 In addition to that, we did receive an 15 appropriation of 1.3 million, I think it was, 16 last year. We have used that appropriation 17 to invest in a new call system in the Office 18 of Teaching Initiatives. We have also 19 purchased and are in the process of 20 implementing a sort of customer management 21 system that will make that more efficient. 22 The remaining components of this 23 really relate to the systems work that needs 24 to be done by our IT shop. And that is when 111 1 the commissioner talked about the result of 2 disinvestment over many years in the 3 technology of the department, the 4 improvements that we're looking to make in 5 the Office of Teacher Certification is 6 dependent upon us having those IT resources 7 available when that project is undertaken. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Thank you. 9 So do you believe, then, that we have 10 plenty of teachers in the pipeline ready to 11 work or -- do we just have IT and 12 technological problems, then? 13 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. I 14 don't -- I don't think we have -- the 15 evidence indicates, when we look at 16 enrollment in teacher prep programs, 17 enrollment has declined in teacher prep 18 programs. 19 So the other thing we did with our 20 P-TECH, we had proposed in our RFP for P-TECH 21 that we create P-TEACH program. The Division 22 of Budget and the Executive Chamber refused 23 to have that included in that Early College 24 High School P-TECH proposal and RFP current 112 1 year. 2 Going forward, we are advancing a 3 departmental bill that addresses P-TECH and 4 early college high school to create that 5 college and career readiness program. And in 6 that departmental bill is -- it provides for 7 a P-TEACH program. 8 Because we know, based upon our 9 conversations with teachers, there are many 10 students at the high school level who may 11 have an interest in teaching. We need to be 12 able to engage them in programs that develop 13 and cultivate that interest on an articulated 14 pathway. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 We go to the Senate. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 18 Next is Senator Oberacker. 19 SENATOR OBERACKER: Thank you, Madam 20 Chair. 21 And good morning, everyone. 22 Commissioner, it's great to see you in person 23 as opposed to a Zoom meeting. 24 We know that New York State is 113 1 experiencing a teacher shortage. I represent 2 the 51st Senate District, spanning seven 3 counties and nearly 70 school districts 4 within my district. There are challenges for 5 the rural districts that I don't think are 6 unique to some of the urban areas. 7 So my question is, does data exist to 8 show which schools are most in need as far as 9 that, and are we -- or do we have numbers 10 detailing specific trouble spots in that 11 retention? 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So let me 13 start by saying even -- you know, whether 14 it's meeting with a rural, you know -- we 15 meet with superintendents, we meet with 16 stakeholders. This issue of teacher pipeline 17 issues has been around for a while. This 18 is -- but obviously the pandemic exacerbated 19 it. 20 We continue to look at how to grow 21 your own, how to develop opportunities of 22 even paraprofessionals and different ways of 23 growing individuals into the profession, as 24 Jim talked about, different mechanisms. 114 1 We've talked about relaxing many of the rules 2 so that we -- you know, teachers are not also 3 spending a lot of money to go to college to 4 get additional, you know, certifications and 5 degrees and all of the above, because that's 6 also hurting the system as well. 7 Flexibility, if you're a teacher doing 8 student teaching, if you student teach two 9 days, you could work the other two or three 10 days so you've got some income. 11 So we've gotten very creative around 12 this, but we've gotten creative because of 13 our conversations with our stakeholders and 14 our partners and the people both in rural and 15 other urban, suburban settings that are doing 16 this work. We are -- 17 SENATOR OBERACKER: Perfect. 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: We are 19 co-initiating innovating. 20 SENATOR OBERACKER: You know, we have 21 the -- I was -- in your testimony the funding 22 for the two grant programs, the 25 million 23 for Teachers of Tomorrow and 2 million for 24 Teacher Mentors -- I can tell you, if you 115 1 want to test out a certain district, I'd be 2 more than willing, Commissioner, to have you 3 come into the district and I will make sure 4 that this money gives us a return on our 5 investment. 6 Thank you for your answers, and thank 7 you for the job that you're doing. 8 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Thank you. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 We go to Assemblywoman Simon. 11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: There we go. 12 Thank you so much. 13 Good morning. 14 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Good 15 morning. 16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I'm going to ask 17 a -- kind of focus on reading, and I notice 18 that in the Executive Budget there's really 19 no proposal to do anything about that. And 20 as we know, reading is fundamental. And the 21 brain science has been telling us that the 22 basis that's been assumed for the curriculum 23 commonly used in New York is built on a 24 faulty premise, which is that kids will sort 116 1 of just learn. 2 But we need explicit sequential 3 language-based instruction in reading for all 4 children. And as you know, working -- I'm 5 working with a different higher ed prep 6 issue, but last year there was a bill that 7 was vetoed because there was no money 8 assigned to it but it would have eventually 9 required extensive professional development. 10 So I'm wondering if you can tell us 11 how much it would cost to give professional 12 development to all of our K-3 teachers -- not 13 that they're the only ones who need it -- but 14 let's say K-3 teachers, and not only being 15 exposed to but becoming sufficiently skilled 16 in teaching reading consistent with the brain 17 science. 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, we 19 just had this whole conversation on dyslexia, 20 brains, and it's exactly because I asked. 21 We have been, as you know, in all 22 kinds of conversations, but it isn't just 23 about professional development, which gives 24 them the strategies, but it's also the 117 1 screening. So you've got to have the 2 assessment, the screening part of it, you 3 have to have strategies in place. But the 4 strategies have to match for that as to 5 professional development. 6 We have got to train, both at the 7 higher ed level, as you know, and at the 8 local level, train our teachers not only in 9 terms of brain research, which we talked 10 about earlier, but also using these 11 strategies that we know work for our 12 students. And you and I had the conversation 13 that it not only works for the English 14 language learners as well, but so you have 15 for special needs students in general, you 16 have for gen ed students, and you also have 17 for English language learners. 18 So we are very committed in terms of 19 the dyslexia, brain research, the work that's 20 been done. We as a department are extremely 21 committed to using those strategies, to using 22 that as a way of leveraging the investments 23 in this -- 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I would just 118 1 suggest that while that's absolutely correct, 2 I'm concern that because of a focus on 3 dyslexia, people will say, well, it's only 4 those people. And I think what we need to do 5 is say it's about reading, and it's about 6 instructing students so that there's a 7 language base, it's sequential, it's 8 explicit, it's structured. 9 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Good 10 strategies in general. 11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Right, exactly. 12 Thank you. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: But we need to 15 know how much it will cost. 16 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I'm sorry? 17 We will get back to you on that. 18 Because as you know, we did meet about the 19 costs, but we're not there yet. Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 21 Senate? 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 23 Senator Stec. 24 SENATOR STEC: Good morning. Thank 119 1 you very much. Commissioner, good to see 2 you. 3 As you know, I represent a big part of 4 the North Country, big district, little bit 5 more difficult for a legislator to get 6 around, and correspondingly bigger for school 7 buses to run around and pick up kids. Less 8 efficient than certainly downstate. So the 9 busing is a different issue up where I live 10 than certainly most of my colleagues on the 11 Island or downstate. 12 With that said, the state has mandated 13 in last year's budget that all new buses 14 purchased in 2027 must be zero-emission, so 15 schools are starting to look at this. 16 estimates are between an eight and 17 $15 billion cost to the taxpayer, with only 18 $800 million available from state and federal 19 resources. So 90 percent of the cost of this 20 bus mandate will fall to the local taxpayer. 21 Schools are starting to look at this, 22 and they're being told by electric providers 23 that the grid cannot handle this mandate. So 24 that's not really a question for you, that's 120 1 a question for the Environmental Committee, I 2 guess. But my concern is this mandate and 3 the cost to the taxpayers for something 4 that's going to be very expensive and may not 5 work. 6 What are your thoughts on that? Is 7 the Second Floor aware of this? And is there 8 any chance of rethinking or revisiting this 9 decision? The state is not the same: Just 10 last week, 20 below zero in the 11 North Country, and the kids still went to 12 school. Electric buses behave very 13 differently when it's 20 below than they do 14 when it's zero degrees on Long Island. 15 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So a couple 16 of quick things. 17 You have -- you know, you have raised 18 an issue that we've been in conversation, 19 deeply in conversation with Christina 20 Coughlin's team. We were at the Rural 21 Conference, it came up. It came up because 22 of the cost as well. It came up because of 23 the electrical issues. It came up because of 24 the grid. It came up because, you know, the 121 1 distances that the buses -- I mean, this is a 2 massive investment. 3 And we are late to the party because 4 if -- whether it's bonds or whether -- it's 5 really creating a plan for districts to get 6 ready for this. It's a major, major issue. 7 So we are more than glad to have a 8 conversation, because internally this is one 9 of the issues that's keeping us up at night, 10 to know that we're asking districts to -- you 11 know, you're talking about three times as 12 much. And it's a good investment in terms 13 of, you know, ultimately some people -- 14 again, this is a debate. Some people believe 15 it's -- you know, in terms of our environment 16 and everything, not everybody is on that 17 debate as well. 18 So you're convincing communities that 19 are struggling to begin with to make this 20 investment. You're also going out there 21 trying to convince communities -- why do we 22 need this change? Why is it costing three 23 times as much? How do we know it's going to 24 work? You know, where's the pilot? You 122 1 know, where's the funding going to come from? 2 Anyway, I would say please join us at 3 our next conversation, because this is -- 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry -- 5 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I 6 would also like to point out the department 7 requested an appropriation -- 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No, I'm sorry -- 9 (Overtalk, shushing.) 10 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- to 11 support local planning, and it was not in the 12 Executive Budget. 13 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: That's 14 correct. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We're losing 16 control. 17 SENATOR STEC: I hope my colleagues 18 were paying attention to the answer. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right, 20 Senator Stec, thank you. 21 SENATOR STEC: Thank you very much, 22 Madam Chair. 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 123 1 Assemblyman Conrad. 2 (Off the record.) 3 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Is that on? 4 Hi, Commissioner. Nice to see you 5 again. And thank you, Chairs. 6 I also want to echo I guess the 7 frustration that -- not just from a rural 8 position, but a suburban -- about the 9 infrastructure costs and issues on 10 transportation. But my colleague already 11 raised that, so I'm going to shift gears. 12 How long has it been since we changed 13 or updated the K-12 health learning 14 standards? I think you mentioned it earlier. 15 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Twenty 16 years. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Twenty years. 18 Because I was looking at a copy, a colleague 19 dropped it off, it was 1996 the last time we 20 updated it. And I know some of our 21 colleagues have been talking about 22 anti-bullying education, and I think it's 23 included in that standard. 24 How long has it been -- I know that 124 1 the department in the past has hired someone, 2 maybe a specialist inside the curriculum 3 department. How long has it been since we've 4 funded that position to kind of work on that? 5 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Twenty 6 years, maybe? 7 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Twenty years, 8 okay. So it's been a while. But we're 9 working on that, it's going to be consummate 10 going forward. 11 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yes. 12 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, 13 I think this -- 14 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: We 15 acknowledged that. That's why I made that 16 point about standards. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: I honed in on 18 that, and I -- 19 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Thank you. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: -- just wanted to 21 bring that up. 22 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I 23 think this points out the disinvestment in 24 the department that has happened over an 125 1 extended period of time. 2 We are responsible for the development 3 of the New York State learning standards 4 which guide education in every public school 5 in this state, and that office is chronically 6 underfunded and the manifestation of that is 7 that it takes us longer to do things than it 8 otherwise would. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Appreciate that. 10 And with my time, just moving on and 11 talking about teacher recruitment, as a 12 former educator myself for 21 years. I saw 13 this advent come at the same time APPR rolled 14 out. Is the SED going to be making any 15 improvements or recommendations for 16 improvements to the APPR? Because we've kind 17 of been changing them over the last two years 18 with COVID. Is there anything that you're 19 suggesting going forward, I think? 20 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Sure. And I 21 think some of you may know, we started this 22 conversation -- we have this conversation 23 every year. I have to say APPR starts, in 24 September we go through the whole year 126 1 talking about APPR. I think because of what 2 happened last year, last year was APPR and 3 receivership both. 4 This year we started early and we put 5 together -- and we did share it with our EBC, 6 yeah, I think last week. We put together 7 some critical issues that we gathered from 8 our superintendents -- NYSCOSS, NYSSBA, 9 SAANYS, all of our stakeholders. We put 10 together pretty much an outline of critical 11 principles that should be included that I 12 think we can all agree on. 13 And we did say the high-stakes issue, 14 as you know, as a former teacher, you know, 15 gets in the way of many of these issues. But 16 at the same time, really coming up with a 17 high-quality way of evaluating our staff, 18 both teachers and principals, is critical. 19 So we are working on it. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Thank you. 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And we're 22 more than glad to share that document with 23 you. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: I'd appreciate 127 1 that. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 4 Senator Weber. 5 SENATOR WEBER: Thank you, 6 Madam Speaker. Are we on here? Can you hear 7 me? Okay. Thank you, Madam Speaker. 8 And thank you for being here and 9 answering our questions. 10 I just have a few questions. Now that 11 all districts have gone one-to-one with 12 devices, those devices are starting to 13 come -- coming to their end of useful life. 14 You know, the pandemic shed light on the 15 depth of the digital divide in this state, 16 both socioeconomic levels and access in rural 17 areas. Schools worked tirelessly and 18 invested heavily in narrowing that divide. 19 Now that districts face, you know, 20 older devices for the students, I guess what 21 I'm -- my first question is, how are 22 districts expected to keep up with the 23 one-to-one programs and providing devices 24 after the pandemic relief funds have run out 128 1 now? 2 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So let me 3 start by saying that we did a survey -- and 4 we can again share that -- where we found 5 where were the pain points in terms of, you 6 know, what various communities had. 7 Number two, we did ask -- we made a 8 concerted effort to make sure that our 9 funding from the feds, stimulus dollars, were 10 used to do this work in terms of getting 11 equipment. And that's allowable. So this 12 was a good way to target that issue of 13 developing the infrastructure. 14 But the reason we did that was also 15 not just in terms of the technology, but -- 16 and we do still need a lot of work in the 17 infrastructure issue. We're not -- that's 18 not our end of it, but certainly, as many of 19 you know, that infrastructure issue still has 20 to -- and the connectivity issue. 21 At the same time, what we are looking 22 at is making sure that our children have that 23 because we are going into, you know, the 24 computer tests process. And we are going 129 1 into that next year. So the CBT issue. And 2 many of our districts have been participating 3 already. So we really need those computers 4 to support -- I think we are one of very few 5 states that is -- you know, when we meet with 6 our task, that we're not there yet. And we 7 need to get there. 8 SENATOR WEBER: Thank you. 9 And I just had one other question. 10 It's related to UPK. So the allocation of 11 UPK, universal pre-kindergarten, hasn't 12 changed since the program's inception 13 20 years ago. While there's grants that 14 districts can apply for, there are only an 15 increased number of seats, not for -- right 16 now for the per-pupil allocation. 17 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So there's 18 $100 million in the Executive Budget that's 19 allocational, and there's a $25 million 20 appropriation that must be competitively 21 awarded. The $25 million appropriation is 22 only for new seats and cannot be used to help 23 districts that need additional funding to 24 sustain their programs. 130 1 And the Regents had proposed looking 2 at restructuring the pre-K programs and also, 3 in the interim, as additional funds are 4 added, to level up those programs that are 5 underfunded. 6 SENATOR WEBER: Okay. Just quick -- 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, your 8 time is up. Thank you. 9 SENATOR WEBER: Thank you very much. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 11 Ardila. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN ARDILA: Can you hear me? 13 Great. How are you? 14 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Good. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN ARDILA: Thank you, 16 Chairwoman. 17 Commissioner, thank you for -- you and 18 your team for joining us this morning. We 19 really appreciate it. 20 You know, my team and I, we've been 21 crunching through the numbers from the 22 Governor's budget proposal. And while there 23 are some things that we do find to be 24 meritorious and worthy of applause, there are 131 1 some that are a bit disgruntling for us, 2 unsettling. 3 My understanding -- and I think, you 4 know, my colleague Senator Jackson, he 5 alluded to this -- is the, you know, the 6 construction of over a hundred new charter 7 schools. And I represent Western and Central 8 Queens -- Ridgewood, Long Island City, 9 Sunnyside, Maspeth, Woodside -- where we 10 would imagine a number of those schools would 11 come to the district. And as of now, there's 12 been over $2 billion diverted from public 13 school funding into charter schools. 14 In your expert opinion, what could 15 public schools have done with those 16 $2 billion if they weren't diverted? 17 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, I -- I 18 would start with saying that the whole 19 structure that we have in place has to be 20 examined. Because your question about 21 Queens, I have a district that had a monitor 22 for fiscal, Wyandanch, and all of a sudden 23 they're there, they got there, we had a 24 monitor. Now there is a potential, right, 132 1 there's a new charter coming into town, and I 2 really believe that we really -- you know, it 3 isn't about charters versus public schools. 4 If we're saying they're all public schools, 5 then let's talk about it in terms of funding, 6 and let's not have winners and losers. 7 And the problem is is that the way 8 it's structured, the money is taken and it 9 has an impact on who's left behind. And I 10 would submit that we really have to really do 11 a real deep dive into how do we coexist, how 12 do we create opportunities, versus creating 13 the situation that somebody feels that 14 dollars are being taken, and you still have 15 to maintain the integrity of the same 16 teachers, the same space, the same 17 everything. 18 So we have not done a good job in 19 really examining the total impact of this 20 issue. And I see it with Wyandanch right 21 now. It is devastating, after all the good 22 work that's been done, to see a district 23 that's going to be impacted as a result of 24 this issue. 133 1 Jim? 2 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I 3 think you've covered it. 4 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yeah, so I 5 think it's looking at that, but also, to your 6 point, what can you do with that? Districts 7 are struggling. There are, you know -- and 8 it's not as if -- if I take 12 kids from 9 the -- you know, I know in my own high 10 school, in my own middle school, designing a 11 class -- we'll get it together. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 13 We go to the Senate now. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 Ranker Tom O'Mara, five minutes. 16 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. 17 Thank you all for your testimony so 18 far. 19 I just want to follow up on the 20 teacher shortage issues that are out there. 21 And I hear almost daily from the school 22 districts that I represent, and many others. 23 You talked a little bit about the 24 certification process, and streamlining that 134 1 or expediting that. And I have heard that 2 that's helping, to some extent. So I think 3 we need to keep going in that regard. 4 But can you talk a little more about 5 what we're doing just to get new teachers in 6 the pipeline, rather than recertifying or 7 expanding their certification areas to fit in 8 various holes that are there. What efforts 9 are underway to get new teachers into the 10 education -- higher education system to get 11 in line? 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So I'm going 13 to turn it over to Jim. But the one thing 14 that I would say, we've got to change the 15 narrative in terms of the teaching 16 profession. And by that I mean we have to 17 really celebrate -- I mean, these were our 18 first educational responders during COVID, 19 and we have to celebrate that. 20 We also have to think about how 21 education -- a lot of times people say, you 22 know, I want my kid to be X, Y and Z, but not 23 this. We have been really putting a lot of 24 messages out there that in many ways obstruct 135 1 or do not necessarily allow for people to see 2 this profession as an amazing profession that 3 I selected over 40 years ago. 4 We have got to get to a place that we 5 really give our schools, our teachers, a 6 level of professionalism, a level of 7 commitment, both, you know -- some of it is, 8 you know, we know that they love the work 9 that they do but we've got to still continue 10 to treat them as professionals and people who 11 give a lot in this space. Many of you have 12 come from that space, so you appreciate the 13 fact how challenging it is. One parent, two 14 or three kids, most of you say, I'm going to 15 work. Imagine a teacher with one class with 16 25, 30 kids. Very, very challenging. 17 So I will say that we really, really, 18 really have to look at how challenging this 19 profession -- maybe the day of the 20 Lone Ranger should be revisited. I mean, I 21 certainly wrote a dissertation in 1995 about 22 inclusive classrooms, cooperative teaching in 23 an inclusive classroom. We need more hands 24 in those classes. We need more support. 136 1 And so I would say that is one 2 opportunity, but we also have to make an 3 investment in drawing higher institutions as 4 well as working cooperatively with our 5 communities to really put advanced plans to 6 draw people early on -- early on -- into this 7 amazing profession. 8 Jim? 9 SENATOR O'MARA: Well, you know, 10 you've mentioned the extent of time that the 11 student spends with the teacher in a 12 classroom. Are there efforts underway just 13 to have the teachers themselves portraying a 14 more positive aspect of teaching? 15 I mean, I've heard over the years 16 oftentimes from my own kids about teachers 17 complaining in the classroom, about how lousy 18 the conditions are for -- whether it's pay, 19 benefits, time, et cetera. Are there efforts 20 underway just to have the front line talking 21 positively to the students about future 22 opportunities that they might have in 23 education? 24 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: One of the 137 1 most amazing work that I've done in my 2 lifetime was studying, throughout this 3 country, cooperative teaching. And the 4 reason is two people in the classroom. One 5 special ed, one gen ed. And guess what? 6 They were partners. And, you know, some of 7 you know that when you have two people 8 raising children or two people raising or 9 doing an activity -- you do the dishes, I do 10 the cooking, right -- that's a lot easier 11 than being the Lone Ranger. I think it's 12 time to rethink our -- the way, you know, we 13 create classrooms and the way that we think 14 about those 25/20 and the resources that are 15 needed to support all of those children. 16 So I would submit that there are 17 models out there that are working quite well. 18 And when you think about it, think about some 19 of our most outstanding private schools in 20 this country. What do parents look for, the 21 first thing? Reduced class size. And they 22 also think about a teacher -- you know, the 23 quality of that teacher and the training of 24 that teacher. So I'd like to run our 138 1 educational system so that it can compete 2 with some of the ingredients that we find in 3 those private schools. 4 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At the 5 risk of the gavel, I will tell you we are 6 working with institutions of higher education 7 and school districts to create residency 8 programs for teaching assistants, creating 9 pathways. We've also got P-TEACH, we've got 10 TOC II, where we've used MBK funds to support 11 aspiring teachers. And a host of other 12 activities. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 14 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 16 Assembly. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We've been 18 joined by Assemblyman Carroll and 19 Assemblyman De Los Santos. 20 And we go to Assemblyman Smullen. 21 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Otis. 23 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Sure. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Three minutes, 139 1 Mr. Smullen. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: Great. Thank 3 you very much, Chair. 4 Commissioner, it's great to see you 5 and your team here today. It's a very 6 important hearing. 7 I represent Fulton, Hamilton, 8 Herkimer, Montgomery and Oneida counties, a 9 very large rural district, but of course with 10 the same number of people. But I've got 11 three separate BOCES clusters, 26 school 12 districts -- many of them are central school 13 districts. And we rely very heavily on BOCES 14 programs in our districts. And one of the 15 things that was very disappointing to see was 16 the aidable salary cap for CTE in BOCES. 17 It's the number-one issue that I've been 18 hearing from all of the superintendents when 19 we meet in -- together. 20 And I just wanted to first of all get 21 your thoughts on it, but secondly make it 22 recognized and realizable. To my 23 understanding, it's been since 1990 or 1991 24 since the 30,000 level was set. I just did a 140 1 quick calculation, because, you know, 2 economics matters. Since then, inflation 3 would indicate that that would now be a 4 $65,000 base salary. 5 Could you comment on that? And I'll 6 follow up with a couple of other quick 7 questions. 8 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 9 The $30,000 cap on salaries is basically 10 causing districts to not participate in BOCES 11 programs because they're not getting enough 12 aid back. 13 And I was a district superintendent, 14 as I mentioned earlier. That was seven or 15 eight years ago when I left that position, 16 and for years before that we were advocating 17 for lifting that cap. Because if we compare 18 the expenses when that cap was created to 19 where we are now, you see that the value of 20 BOCES aid has been significantly diminished. 21 And BOCES is probably the single best 22 example of interdistrict and intermunicipal 23 cooperation that New York State has seen. So 24 the Board of Regents has, in its proposal, 141 1 called for significant increases in BOCES aid 2 that is targeted to CTE. For many years the 3 Board of Regents has advocated that the 4 $30,000 cap be lifted. We need the support 5 of the Legislature because we have not gotten 6 traction with the preceding governor or the 7 current Governor when it comes to ensuring 8 that the critical services BOCES provide to 9 our -- most of our school districts 10 throughout the states are sustainable. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN SMULLEN: I fully agree. 12 And I heard the comments before from Senator 13 Murray. And knowing, you know, from the area 14 I represent, there are lots of jobs and 15 business is booming, but we can't find the 16 workers. Workforce development is a critical 17 component of this. You know, my God, if 18 we're not going to share services in this 19 area and the state needs to pony up its 20 share, then what else is -- is -- this is a 21 nonpartisan issue in my mind. 22 Thank you very much, Commissioner. 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 24 Next is our new Senator, Iwen Chair, 142 1 chair of Libraries -- Iwen Chu. I confused 2 "Chu" and "chair." She is our new chair of 3 Libraries. Ten minutes, please. 4 Excuse me, Iwen. 5 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 6 Good morning, Chancellor. Just -- 7 it's regarding our library funding. 8 So I can see from -- in the past 9 16 years, our districts are reimbursed to 10 approve the expense, like it's a $6.25 per 11 pupil. You know, in a public school system 12 or a nonpublic school system, the past 13 16 years we didn't see any increase on this 14 one. 15 So in terms of the budgeting and how 16 you prioritize the library material aid, 17 printed or digital material, how do you 18 prioritize those? And especially during the 19 past two years, the pandemic, I believe the 20 digital material needs are going up. So I 21 would like to see what's -- do you have any 22 better number for this one? And how we could 23 address the digital material. 24 NYSED CFO MORRIS: The Regents state 143 1 aid proposal does include an increase in 2 instructional materials aid. This was 3 proposed in the last year as well. It does 4 require a statutory change. It would index 5 the amounts to inflation and also increase 6 the amount. 7 So we would appreciate your support on 8 that. 9 SENATOR CHU: I'm sorry, the last 10 sentence, could you say louder? I couldn't 11 hear. 12 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Instructional -- we 13 would just appreciate your support on our 14 proposal to increase instructional material. 15 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: For the last 16 two years we've been asking. 17 SENATOR CHU: Do you have any numbers, 18 like what would be prioritized -- 19 percentagewise, say, $6.25, how do we 20 prioritize digital needs and then printed 21 need. Do you have the proportion or -- 22 NYSED CFO MORRIS: We can provide -- 23 SENATOR CHU: Or how is the database 24 right now, what we have? 144 1 NYSED CFO MORRIS: We can provide 2 those numbers. Yes, we do have them. 3 SENATOR CHU: That would be great. 4 And -- that's it. The rest I will 5 leave it to the library system to ask. 6 Madam Chair. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 8 Assemblymember Jackson. 9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: It's still 10 morning, so good morning, everyone. 11 So I'm excited about fully funded 12 Foundation Aid, even though we know that it's 13 based on an old census. And I'm looking 14 forward to the amount of money we spend on 15 Community Schools and CTE schools, because I 16 know for a fact that those are what work. 17 What I am concerned about is no matter 18 how many dollars you put into our education 19 system, we see that our Black and brown 20 students are graduating at lower rates than 21 their Asian and white counterparts. And so 22 I'm just wondering, how much money is it 23 going to take for our kids to catch up? What 24 is the actual plan for Black and brown 145 1 students when it comes to funding -- like 2 what is the actual plan? I don't -- I don't 3 ever see anything written, even though we all 4 know that they're failing. 5 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So let me 6 start, and I'm glad you mentioned Community 7 Schools, which is a model that we, you 8 know -- I think the conversations are always 9 about investments, right? And there are all 10 these different models. I ran 218 in 11 Washington Heights as the first Community 12 School, in partnership with the Children's 13 Aid Society. That is a model that would 14 somehow have -- you know, we invest a little 15 bit and then we just walk away from it. 16 For particularly communities of color, 17 it is a model that supports the family, 18 supports the child. It is not just 19 child-centered, it is community-centered. 20 You know, many of those programs are open six 21 days a week, provide GED -- provide all kinds 22 of services for the community. Provide 23 clinical and everything else. 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Right. We 146 1 know that Community Schools work. I just 2 wanted to -- 3 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So -- but 4 the funding is -- what I'm getting to is the 5 issue of the funding. 6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Okay. 7 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: The 8 funding -- the issue of the funding 9 happens -- which is why we want to look at 10 the formula. We have got to get to a place 11 that even though we keep saying there's 12 investments and, you know, how much is too 13 much or not enough or whatever, the fact of 14 the matter is that in society there are all 15 of these endeavors, all of these issues that 16 are very specific to schools that we fund. 17 At the same time, you know, when we 18 give you a number and we say, you know, it 19 costs $20,000 per child, that's just a 20 general number. It matters as to where these 21 dollars are going. And part of what we want 22 to try to do is, with a Foundation Aid new 23 formula, is to be intentional and target. 24 Not just to have a formula, you know, to your 147 1 point, but be very intentional and target 2 those communities where the greatest needs 3 are. 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very 7 much. 8 I'm going to take some of my time, 9 thank you. Actually, I'm following up for 10 our chair Shelley Mayer who had to run out to 11 something, but she'll be back. So she asked 12 me to use my time to help. This was one of 13 my questions also. 14 So we have so many new migrants coming 15 to New York State. Obviously I come from 16 New York City and we know that the estimates 17 grow every single day. But it's statewide. 18 And there's obviously children who have true 19 new needs for us. Obviously they're coming 20 to this country with almost nothing, 21 including clothes and healthcare, but also 22 perhaps very limited education from their 23 home country. 24 What are we doing to make sure that we 148 1 can address this, you know, significant 2 population of new children? 3 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So Phyllis 4 is first, so we don't run out of time, to 5 give you the specific dollars of investments 6 in this issue. Because remember, it's not -- 7 we also have -- even before this issue, we've 8 had kids in shelters, and so there's dollars 9 that go into those. 10 Our job is from shelters to -- as you 11 well know. So the dollars that we think go a 12 long way are spread out to many of these 13 issues. 14 So Phyllis? 15 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So the Regents 16 state aid proposals, both for '22-'23 and for 17 '23-'24, have included a proposal for 18 enrollment adjustment aid. 19 Currently districts must wait a year 20 to receive reimbursement for increases in 21 enrollment. So when districts are 22 experiencing a large influx of new students, 23 they don't have the resources up-front in the 24 current year to be able to serve those 149 1 students. 2 The Regents have proposed allowing 3 districts to receive current-year aid so they 4 have the resources in hand to serve those 5 students at the time that they need to 6 provide the services. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So it just 8 happens to be that Midtown Manhattan, East 9 Side and West Side, I think, at this point, 10 are now sort of the center of resettlement 11 for the new migrants coming to what we're 12 calling HERCs. And literally from day to day 13 to day you can see enormous numbers of new 14 children, and then they try to make room for 15 them in the existing schools. 16 So does your model for providing 17 funding or making sure the funding gets to 18 the right place where the children are 19 actually have the flexibility to deal with 20 the fact that, you know, there could be 21 4,000 more children, literally, in a couple 22 of Midtown schools within a matter of months? 23 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So it would -- our 24 proposal right now, under the current law, 150 1 districts have to wait a whole year to 2 receive funding for those new students. And 3 our proposal would be they could have the 4 funding right in the current year, right 5 up-front, at the time that they need to 6 service students. 7 So yes, it's enrollment-based aid. So 8 it would be proportional to the number of new 9 students that are coming in. 10 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Right. And 11 by the way, that happened with Maria when the 12 kids ended up going to places on Long Island 13 like, you know, Hempstead or other places 14 where they couldn't get the money up-front. 15 And it happened to Rochester and other 16 places. 17 Now, this is another -- this is 18 another area where the formula has to be -- 19 you can't ask people -- you have X number of 20 kids, now you have an influx. I went to a 21 school in the Bronx that had a large influx 22 of the students, and the principal said it 23 didn't change my budget by having these X 24 number of students. Meanwhile, I've got to 151 1 hire additional teachers, I've got to hire 2 all of this. 3 So our formula in that respect needs 4 to be -- you know, needs to address the very 5 issue you're asking. Thank you. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 7 The Governor apparently reduced funds 8 for fiscal monitors in her Executive Budget. 9 Now, I know you had a number of questions 10 earlier about how you make sure money is 11 getting to the right place. Is that what you 12 use fiscal monitors to do? And what does it 13 mean if you lose fiscal monitors? 14 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So there's four 15 districts with monitors -- Wyandanch, 16 Hempstead, Rochester and East Ramapo. And 17 each of those districts has a monitor 18 appointed by the education commissioner. And 19 the monitor provides vital support and 20 technical assistance and direction for those 21 districts in managing their finances. 22 And the salary cost of those monitors 23 in the past has been split between the state 24 and the district. And you're correct, 152 1 Senator, that the Executive Budget would 2 eliminate the state share of those salary 3 costs. That's the proposal in the Executive 4 Budget, that's correct. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So is it 6 someone's assumption that the localities will 7 just pick up the full cost, or we just won't 8 have those people? 9 NYSED CFO MORRIS: There's still the 10 mandate. The Executive Budget also extends 11 the Rochester monitor authority by two years. 12 So the mandate is still there. The mandate 13 is in statute. So the mandate to have a 14 monitor would still be required. So 15 presumably the cost would have to be fully 16 borne by the school district. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So it's a cost 18 shift to the localities. 19 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Mm-hmm. 20 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Correct. 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Didn't 22 change the law, it just changed the shift of 23 the monitor. 24 And keep in mind that there are two 153 1 monitors in East Ramapo, and we stepped it up 2 legislatively, we stepped it up from monitors 3 to monitors with veto power, because we had 4 some serious concerns. 5 So all of these would have to -- it's 6 on the back of the kids, again, and the 7 districts. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 9 So 11 percent for special education 10 schools. What's the status of that 11 situation? Is this a proposed 11 percent 12 increase? 13 NYSED CFO MORRIS: I'm not following 14 that, Senator, I'm sorry. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, I'm 16 reading someone else's questions, so I wasn't 17 sure whether they were asking for 11 percent 18 or somebody was actually coming up with 19 11 percent. 20 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: That 21 11 percent sounds like the special ed -- that 22 sounds like the bill from last year. 23 Remember that? It was vetoed -- 24 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Oh, I know what it 154 1 is. Yeah. So it's the parity bill, I 2 think -- 3 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Parity bill, 4 yeah. 5 NYSED CFO MORRIS: -- is what you're 6 asking about. 7 So yes, the department and the Regents 8 have proposed parity in funding private 9 providers of school-age and preschool special 10 education services, and to have the same 11 growth rate applied for those providers as is 12 provided to public schools through school 13 aid. 14 So the Governor's budget for '23-'24 15 would have a 10 percent increase in school 16 aid. So the parity for the growth rate for 17 the special ed providers under our proposal 18 would be that same 10 percent. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So we think 20 that's happening. 21 NYSED CFO MORRIS: No, we need 22 legislation to require that. Either that or 23 the administrative methodology approved by 24 the Division of Budget needs to include that. 155 1 But we have been successful 2 administratively, which is why we're 3 proposing it legislatively. 4 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yeah, that's 5 back to the cost-setting methodology. You 6 know, trying to make sure that part of it is 7 asking for the parity issue. That's in 8 there. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 10 Libraries capital money, is there such 11 a thing? And does it go through SED, or who 12 does it go through? 13 I have so many libraries in my 14 district that are not ADA-accessible. And of 15 course a huge percentage of library users are 16 older people, people with disabilities, 17 families with children in carriages that 18 can't get up and down the staircases to the 19 older libraries. 20 And it's -- it just breaks my heart, 21 to be honest, that I think it's not unique to 22 the older libraries I have in my district but 23 probably libraries all over the state. 24 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Correct, Senator. 156 1 Our information is that close to one in five 2 libraries do not have ADA access to all of 3 their areas. And that is a significant 4 problem. 5 It was referenced earlier there's a 6 $1.5 billion statewide need for public 7 library construction. Those funds are 8 appropriated in the State Education 9 Department's budget, to answer your question. 10 For the current year, for '22-'23, there's a 11 $34 million appropriation. The Executive 12 Budget proposes to reduce that to 13 $14 million. It's a capital appropriation. 14 The Regents and the department have 15 proposed $45 million. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 17 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And we're 18 also asking not to have retrofit but to do 19 things from the very beginning. That's why I 20 mentioned senior citizens before when we were 21 talking about libraries. 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 23 Assembly. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 157 1 Assemblyman Kim, three minutes. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: Thank you, 3 Commissioner. I appreciate the kind of 4 ambivalent tone, as it pertains to the 5 Executive's push to expand the charter school 6 movement, from your testimony today. 7 I just want to remind every one of my 8 colleagues that, you know, we've inherited 9 decades of failed federal policies that have 10 opened up a market to privatize public 11 schools. So it's public schools that save 12 lives, investing in public schools saves 13 lives, not privatizing public schools. And I 14 think your team understands this. 15 And we'll make sure we hold charter 16 schools accountable, which is critical, 17 because data after data across the country 18 have shown that there's no-show jobs, 19 self-dealing, fraud, corruption, all of these 20 charter school companies that have come up 21 and shut down. So I hope that we can take 22 this seriously, we can find some forensic 23 auditors to go in and look at the accounting 24 of the charter schools to make sure we hold 158 1 them accountable. 2 But speaking of accountability, I do 3 want to bring up the Times Union article 4 about the corporal punishment cases -- about 5 1600 students documented in five years. 6 Corporal punishment is illegal, 7 correct? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SED SPEAKER: Yes, it is. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: It's not acceptable 10 in the State of New York. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SED SPEAKER: Correct. 12 You're correct. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: Have we made any 14 progress to get granular data of the 15 complaints so it can be transparent where the 16 complaints are coming from, what kind of 17 corporal punishment cases are we dealing with 18 so we can make sound decisions and policies 19 moving forward? 20 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, we 21 have -- yeah, we have both at the local level 22 and at the state. 23 And this is a big issue for us because 24 of the fact that it's -- you know, first of 159 1 all, nobody -- I mean, I can't even -- it's 2 not just corporal punishment. We've linked 3 it to the restraining issues, we've linked it 4 to issues of isolation, seclusion and all -- 5 the whole gamut. 6 And we are addressing this issue, of 7 course. We truly support the fact that we 8 need to really take a closer look -- not just 9 the data, but we know that -- the data we can 10 share with you. But also it's the actions 11 that we have to take. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN KIM: Correct. Thank you. 13 I look forward to following up with you. 14 I'm also a very firm believer we are 15 what we're measured by. And if we test Asian 16 curriculum, including Lunar New Year-related 17 topics and Diwali holidays, Asian history, as 18 the Senator had alluded to earlier, in the 19 Regents test, we are creating generations of 20 young people that will view Asian-Americans 21 at large as a part of the fabric of this 22 country. Just like when I grew up, I studied 23 other communities and I grew up thinking, 24 hey, there are no foreigners here. 160 1 But for whatever reason, 2 Asian-Americans suffer from perpetual 3 foreigner syndrome, and education can fix 4 that. I hope that we can have serious 5 conversations going forward. 6 Thank you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 8 Senator John Liu, second round, three 9 minutes. 10 Only the chairs get second rounds, for 11 those of you who haven't been listening 12 carefully to Helene and I. 13 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 14 Thank you, Madam Chair. (Mic on) Thank you, 15 Madam Chair. Third time's the charm. 16 (Laughter.) 17 SENATOR LIU: It always takes a while 18 for my red light to come on. 19 Commissioner, thank you very much. 20 You know, in your response to one of 21 the Assemblymember's questions about charter 22 schools -- not Assemblymember Kim's; I 23 totally concur with his question. But you 24 had -- your response had -- you had mentioned 161 1 in your response that you could not get 2 financial disclosures from these charter 3 schools. Could you just expand on that for a 4 second or 30 seconds? 5 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yeah, 6 there's -- okay, there are -- this is in law, 7 right? We have looked at the issue of what 8 gets disclosed in terms -- you know, as you 9 know. And what I was responding to is the 10 issue of having access to -- and I know even 11 with some of our conversations, the way it's 12 set up, we don't get -- we don't -- we don't 13 get certain information that we do need 14 because it -- you know, it's one of those 15 situations that -- 16 SENATOR LIU: Is it information that 17 SED would like to have, or is it information 18 that they're required to provide to SED but 19 refuse to do so? 20 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Oh, no, no, 21 no. It's information that in terms of the 22 way the law is written, it's what gets 23 disclosed. Right? 24 SENATOR LIU: Okay. So it sounds like 162 1 maybe we need to talk with you about how to 2 make that law clearer. 3 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I agree. 4 SENATOR LIU: So that SED can do its 5 job of monitoring these charter schools more 6 effectively? 7 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, it -- 8 remember that when you talk about the 9 monitoring piece, we should take a look at 10 the charter law and the way it's written and 11 what are the -- what were the, quote, 12 innovative things that were thought to be and 13 are in some cases very much a part of charter 14 schools, that they can do that cannot be done 15 somewhere. 16 SENATOR LIU: Okay. So I think that 17 we'll certainly follow up with you to figure 18 out what additional legislation -- 19 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: You usually 20 do. You usually do on these issues. 21 SENATOR LIU: -- can be crafted to 22 make the charter disclosures to the State 23 Education Department more effective. 24 I don't have a whole lot of time left, 163 1 but I just want to underscore what we talked 2 about in the first round, which is not having 3 excessive class sizes is integral to 4 providing a sound, basic education. I know 5 you started launching into all the different 6 types of measures that are required to be 7 delivered to the State Education Department 8 by all the school districts. But baked in 9 there somehow I would like see exactly where 10 the specific issue of class size is 11 addressed. 12 Assemblymember De Los Santos and I 13 have legislation on this that has been signed 14 into law, and we intend to follow up fully on 15 it. Thank you. 16 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 18 Assembly. 19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 20 Assemblywoman Bichotte Hermelyn. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: Hi. 22 Thank you, Commissioner, for being 23 here, and the whole team. 24 My question is around the charter 164 1 schools. And I just -- I'm just a little bit 2 surprised and appalled, you know, that the 3 Executive Budget is proposing to eliminate 4 the regional cap and to permanently authorize 5 all these charter schools that didn't succeed 6 for whatever reason. It's like saying, hey, 7 even if you did bad, you know, we're still 8 going to put you in our schools -- in our 9 community. 10 That's a problem. This is another way 11 of dismantling our public school system. 12 Even though charter schools are considered 13 public schools, this is a direct dismantle. 14 And this will create more disparities and 15 more segregation. We know that. 16 So I don't know what kind of deal is 17 being done. And this is not to you. 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: No, I 19 understand. 20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: It 21 just makes no sense. It makes no sense. 22 Even within the charter school world, 23 we have disparities. Okay? So we're talking 24 about district schools where there's going to 165 1 be more segregation. And even within the 2 charter schools, we have Black and 3 brown-founded charter-led schools that aren't 4 being represented -- only 6 percent. They're 5 not even being issued. 6 So even if we're going to go the route 7 charter, what happens to the Black and 8 brown-founded charter schools? That's a 9 problem. 10 So I think this whole thing is crazy. 11 It's not good for our students, it's not good 12 for our community. You as the commissioner, 13 where do you stand? I mean, like, it's bad. 14 I don't think this is -- this is -- I don't 15 know, no one is -- this is bad. I think 16 we -- this is very alarming. Very alarming. 17 So please, where do you stand? 18 And again, I know this is the 19 Executive Budget, but you as the 20 commissioner, do you support this? Do you 21 support eliminating the cap, just reassuring 22 permanently any charter schools anywhere? 23 And then again, within the charter school 24 world, do you support the continuous 166 1 disparities and not allowing Black and brown 2 charter schools to take even a part? These 3 are small community schools, and I believe 4 that they weren't even able to testify today. 5 That's a problem. 6 Thank you. 7 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So let me 8 just start that we were not part of this 9 conversation in terms of this decision at 10 all. In terms of the zombies, in terms of 11 removing the boundaries -- 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 13 And, Commissioner, I believe you've -- 14 right, if you could have some offline 15 conversation. And I believe you've 16 answered -- you earlier had addressed some of 17 these issues. 18 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yes. 19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 20 Senate, do you have -- 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: The Senate I 22 believe is closed. So Assembly, keep going. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, so we 24 have next Assemblywoman Hyndman, who I think 167 1 is at conference. 2 So Assemblyman Chang. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN CHANG: Thank you, 4 Chairwoman. 5 Thank you, Commissioner, for being 6 here, as I know it's a long day, a couple of 7 hours already without a break. 8 You know, the pandemic has devastated 9 our school system in terms of teaching, and 10 I'm very happy that the Executive Budget has 11 set aside $250 million for tutoring, 12 high-impact tutoring. 13 So do you have any measurements, 14 procedures and process and measurement 15 matrixes once you use that money for how it's 16 performing? 17 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So let me 18 start by saying that extended -- first of 19 all, it's taking the money that's being given 20 to the schools and asking them to set this 21 aside. With all kinds of other issues -- 22 transportation and -- how do you do that? 23 I do want to say publicly this is not 24 a new innovation. They've been doing this. 168 1 Superintendents and principals do 2 extended-day, particularly with the money for 3 learning recovery. I can tell you because we 4 have meetings with superintendents all the 5 time, principals all the time, our 6 stakeholders. 7 This is something that is going on; it 8 is the way the law was set up. And the 9 requirements that were set up for all the 10 funding that came from the feds -- tutoring, 11 tutoring after school, summer school, all of 12 that was laid out. And they had to put a 13 plan together. So this is embedded already. 14 I think that it's a nice narrative, 15 250 million, but it's taking money from 16 already the money that they are getting. 17 They're already doing this. 18 Number two, I do have to say that the 19 250 -- the fact is that in some places, 20 because of after-school transportation, it's 21 going to be challenging. So the very same 22 kids that normally, you know, are impacted 23 are not going to have access to it. 24 I wish that it was a novel idea; I 169 1 wish it was a great new innovation, new 2 concept, but it is not. It is just 3 additional dollars that they can use to do 4 that. I will tell you, they're flooded with 5 doing a lot of tutoring and doing a lot of 6 work in this space. 7 Jim? 8 SR. DEP. COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, 9 I think, our position would be that that 10 shouldn't be set aside. The Foundation Aid 11 formula is supposed to be fully implemented 12 this year. This really creates an 13 unnecessary diversion of funds. 14 We are -- we think it would be better 15 to provide school districts with the 16 flexibility to use those funds as they best 17 see fit in terms of responding to local 18 needs. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN CHANG: Another question 20 here is class sizes. I'm sure everybody's 21 talking about class sizes. But what's your 22 thought about parental involvement in the 23 decision-making process for high-performing 24 schools and high-performing students and 170 1 low-performing schools and low-performing 2 students? Do you think parents should be 3 involved in the decision-making process? 4 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: We have 5 always, always -- as a parent, I always 6 believed that my voice as a parent is 7 critical. And we have to define what 8 parental involvement is, because people have 9 different ideas what's parental involvement. 10 So I would say I support parental 11 involvement, but we also have to define what 12 does that mean, exactly what's -- you know, 13 what it entails. So absolutely support 14 parental involvement. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN CHANG: Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 18 Assemblywoman Hyndman. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you very 20 much, Chair Weinstein. 21 And I want to thank the deputy 22 commissioners and our commissioner today. 23 Do you know or is there any mechanism 24 within SED to calculate or assess the amount 171 1 of money that goes from a charter school back 2 to the traditional public school when a 3 student or a family has to put their children 4 back in a traditional public school? Is 5 there any mechanism to capture that, number 6 one. 7 I think P-TECH -- P-TEACH should be 8 excellent. As we're losing, we have to 9 cultivate new students for our schools. And 10 if you could also speak to the vacancies 11 within SED for attrition, that would be 12 helpful. 13 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So in terms of 14 charter school funding, when a student is 15 placed in a charter school, the public school 16 district then pays a charter school tuition 17 rate that's established in statute for that 18 student. 19 I'm not sure, is that answering your 20 question? 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Is there any 22 way that SED keeps any record of, one, if the 23 money goes back, and two, how much does go 24 back to traditional public schools? 172 1 NYSED CFO MORRIS: I'm not sure what 2 you mean by "going back." We do have the 3 data on the amount of funding that the public 4 school pays the charter, if that's -- 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay, if you 6 can share that with me. 7 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I think she 8 means in its totality. We can get you in its 9 totality. In other words, X number of 10 charter schools, how much money has exited. 11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Mm-hmm. 12 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: We can do 13 that even by district. In other words, if 14 you take a district like -- whether it's -- 15 let's take Wyandanch or even a district like 16 Hempstead, which is a high rate -- by the 17 way, that's another thing. Different rates 18 in different places as well. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Exactly. 20 Thank you. 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Per student. 22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. And 23 about staff vacancies or attrition within 24 SED, what is the -- how many employees do you 173 1 need, how many have left. Because we talk 2 about teachers, but we're also talking about 3 the people that do the work in SED. 4 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: How 5 many do we need? 6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I was trying 7 to add up all the numbers in here, and I'm 8 sure that's not enough of staff you need and 9 how many staff are you losing. 10 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: So our 11 original number, which was around 3200, we 12 currently have a fill today of 2876, 13 somewhere in that -- I'm sorry, 2549, in that 14 area. So we're trying to get from that 2549 15 up to that -- 16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: That thirty -- 17 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: Yes, 18 to that number, yes. 19 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And that's 20 way -- this is the original number way back, 21 so -- 22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. 23 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And this is 24 with added responsibilities and all the 174 1 things we have to do. 2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: And the 3 unfunded mandates from us, right? 4 (Laughter.) 5 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: But we 6 do have a need to build up our staff in the 7 IT side of the house -- 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I did see that 9 amount -- 10 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: 11 Because that is a major priority for us. We 12 have several modernization programs. And the 13 IT shop has not been funded in many years. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay, thank 15 you. Thank you, Chair Weinstein. 16 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Don't get 17 the gavel. 18 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: I 19 don't want to get gaveled. 20 (Laughter.) 21 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: We 22 need funding for that. 23 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Thank you. 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 175 1 Assemblyman Carroll. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Good afternoon, 3 Dr. Rosa, how are you? 4 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Good, good, 5 good. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: I think you know 7 what I'm going to ask. I'm going to talk 8 about literacy. 9 As you know, there are five pillars to 10 literacy: Phonemic awareness, phonics, 11 fluency, vocabulary, comprehension. As you 12 also know, to learn to read you need direct 13 and explicit instruction. This is the 14 science, and it's undisputed. 15 So I have one simple question. Why do 16 a majority of our public schools use a 17 curriculum that does not follow the science? 18 It is based on "three cueing"; it has been 19 debunked. It is destroying the lives of 20 hundreds of thousands of students every 21 single year. Two-thirds of New York City 22 students read at below grade level; many of 23 them are illiterate. Eighty-plus percent of 24 students in Rochester, Syracuse and Buffalo 176 1 are below grade level. We are destroying 2 their lives. 3 And the reason I care about it is 4 because my life was almost destroyed. I 5 struggled with dyslexia as a child. I was 6 lucky to be identified in a public school in 7 Brooklyn. But if I had not been, I would not 8 be sitting here today. 9 You cannot believe in civil rights, 10 you cannot believe in justice if you do not 11 believe in teaching children to read. We are 12 not teaching children to read. We are 13 turning our backs on the science. How can we 14 continue to do that? Why do the Regents 15 allow for schools to use debunked curriculum 16 and teacher training continuously? 17 This science is 40 years old. This 18 was not found out yesterday. We are doing a 19 great disservice to our state. I commend us 20 for spending the most in the nation per 21 pupil, but I cannot stand by when we are 45th 22 in reading attainment in the nation. 23 Mississippi does better than us. That is 24 unconscionable. What are we going to do 177 1 about it? 2 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Well, let me 3 start by saying that the Regents are -- you 4 and I have met in terms of this issue with 5 dyslexia and the brain research. The Regents 6 have not turned their back on this. You also 7 have to remember local control. You have 8 superintendents in districts that make 9 decisions about -- we do not develop 10 curriculum -- 11 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Dr. Rosa, you 12 have leadership. Dr. Rosa, the Governor was 13 so scared of this topic she vetoed a bill 14 that Senator Hoylman and I had just to have 15 public hearings on it. 16 We need leadership from our Regents. 17 We need them to be honest to parents. We are 18 destroying children's lives. A child who is 19 not reading at grade level in fifth grade 20 rarely if ever catches up. One in seven 21 American adults is functionally illiterate. 22 And unfortunately, there are so many 23 communities where so many more people don't 24 know how to read. 178 1 I care about it because I have seen it 2 happen. I know how lucky I was. And it is a 3 disgrace in New York State that you've got to 4 be lucky to learn how to read. 5 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And you know 6 we did get behind the bill, and we've been -- 7 I mean, we've had meeting after meeting to 8 support this issue of the brain science and 9 the strategies that you and I have spent 10 numerous conversations discussing this issue. 11 So yes, I have leadership. But at the 12 same time, there are local, as you know, 13 local decisions. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank -- thank 15 you. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman De 18 Los Santos. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: Thank you, 20 Madam Chair. 21 Thank you, Commissioner. Happy to 22 have you here today. As a former school 23 social worker and community school director, 24 every day I become more and more and more 179 1 concerned about the lack of full parental 2 engagement in our community schools and every 3 school throughout New York City. And today, 4 in 2023, it's hard for me to imagine not 5 having parents engaged in the process. 6 So when we talk about opportunity for 7 students, opportunity for our Community 8 Schools, for our school districts, 9 opportunity for our families, we're not 10 addressing, we're not engaging our parents in 11 the process. We're not doing the work that 12 needs to be done. 13 And I think it's so important that we 14 allocate and that we include an initiative in 15 the budget that is tailored specifically to 16 parental engagement, because we know -- and 17 by the way, I know we're really excited about 18 class size. 19 I was honored and proud to champion 20 that in the Assembly, along with my colleague 21 in the Senate, Senator John Liu. It provides 22 endless opportunity for students to engage 23 with teachers, the engagement process is 24 enormous. The same is true for parental 180 1 engagement. So we cannot do one and neglect 2 the other one. 3 So I want to know -- because I know 4 oftentimes we talk about parental engagement, 5 and I feel that it's cliched, but we never 6 see it. We talk about it, but I really would 7 like to see it in every Community School in 8 my district. I know there's over 30 9 community schools; there's two in Albany. 10 But parents are not necessarily engaged. And 11 I say that from experience. 12 So what is being done to change that, 13 right, to ensure that the parents are fully 14 engaged in the process? In addition to that, 15 as a former social worker, I'd love to see 16 every Community School district with a social 17 worker with access. Students deserve to have 18 access to quality mental health services -- 19 in addition to that, to have a psychologist 20 in every school. We owe that to our school 21 community, we owe that to our community, we 22 owe that to our families, we owe that to our 23 students. 24 So specifically I want to know what's 181 1 the process for what needs to be done to 2 ensure that mental health becomes a reality 3 in every school and that parental engagement 4 also is fully implemented in every Community 5 School throughout New York City. 6 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Okay, so 7 just as somebody who came from a Community 8 School in Washington Heights that was -- that 9 the parent piece was huge, we support -- we 10 even have a parent piece, a parent office 11 within our department. And we also have them 12 as part of the whole issue with -- the 13 parents have been key in the whole graduation 14 measure. 15 But I do have to say, we can't even 16 get 1.6 million for translations for parents, 17 and we've been asking that for years. So 18 think about not even getting translations. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: I know. I 20 represent one of the most diverse school 21 districts. So I think we owe this to our 22 students, we owe this to our families -- 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Time. The time 24 is -- 182 1 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: -- and I 2 really want to make this a reality -- 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sorry, 4 Assemblyman. The time is -- 5 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: -- in this 6 school budget. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: The time is 8 out. Thank you. 9 Commissioner, in a few places if you 10 can send some responses to everyone. 11 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: I will. I 12 will not only send a response, but we can set 13 up a meeting so you can understand from our 14 perspective how we value the parental 15 involvement, and share with you some of the 16 things we're doing. Absolutely. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: I look 18 forward to that. 19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 20 So we go to Assemblyman Ra, five 21 minutes. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you. 23 Good afternoon, Commissioner. Good to 24 see you. 183 1 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: How are you? 2 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: I want to start 3 with -- you know, and you're in a unique 4 position as opposed to most of our other 5 hearings, in that you're an independent 6 entity. But one of the things that I 7 think -- you know, there's a lot of good 8 stuff in this budget proposal, but one of the 9 things that I find completely ridiculous is 10 the fact that despite the headlines out there 11 about a 10 percent increase, there's a 12 proposed cut to our 4201 schools, which 13 service children with low-incident 14 disabilities. 15 And I'm wondering if you could comment 16 on, you know, if one of these students went 17 back into their district, that increase that 18 district is getting is going to get eaten up 19 pretty quickly. So they do a great job, and 20 they do it well with sometimes not so much 21 funding. 22 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So it was in 23 my opening act, we talked about exactly this 24 issue. And we've spent some time talking 184 1 about it, so I'm going to turn to Phyllis. 2 And we're more than glad to share, with the 3 cost-setting methodology, the kind of work 4 we're doing to really respond to this very 5 issue, which is one -- you know, one of the 6 critical issues for us. 7 NYSED CFO MORRIS: So with regard to 8 the state-supported schools for the blind and 9 deaf students, the 4201 schools that you're 10 referencing, yes, the Executive in the budget 11 does decrease funding across all the schools 12 as well as funding that was specifically 13 designated for certain schools. 14 And as you said, Assemblyman, these 15 schools serve students that cannot be served 16 in the public schools, so there really isn't 17 even a question of can they go back to the 18 public school. These are students that the 19 public school cannot serve. That's why 20 they're placed in these schools. So there's 21 absolutely a need to support them fiscally. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, 23 Commissioner, because I know this has always 24 been an area of focus and passion for you, 185 1 serving these -- our special education 2 students. 3 On kind of a similar topic, so the 4 proposal with regard to the rate-setting 5 methodology for the 853s, is that 6 appropriation that has been proposed 7 sufficient to getting that done? And, you 8 know, what do you see in terms of time frame 9 on that? Is this something that will be done 10 internally within State Ed or, you know, we 11 need to engage like outside entities to do 12 that? 13 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: You're 14 talking about the 2.5 million -- 15 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Yes. 16 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yes. We met 17 with both the Chamber and DOB. The 2.5 is 18 for us to study it, to work both from within, 19 have staff work, and make sure that we have 20 experts who support us to take stock at what 21 the formula and the methodology looks like. 22 We want to have an advisory, 23 obviously. We definitely also want to make 24 sure that some of the issues -- you know, the 186 1 whole issue with some of the concerns we have 2 within the requirements, are those that we 3 can kind of work through and not have them 4 part of it, because at the end of the day 5 we'll end up with the same formula -- and 6 that's not where we want to be. 7 Thank you. 8 NYSED CFO MORRIS: Just in terms of 9 the deadline, the appropriation language in 10 the Article VII language references a July 11 2025 deadline for the methodology being 12 finalized. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Yeah, and then just 14 also about that. I mean, as you know, one of 15 the things that really hurts these schools in 16 terms of just predictability of what they're 17 going to have is the reconciliation process 18 and coming after the fact and, you know, not 19 being able to retain that money. 20 So I hope that's something that we 21 will look very closely at as we go through 22 the process. I mean, I know you agree that 23 this formula is broken and needs at every 24 853 school -- as you know, they're so unique. 187 1 Each one of them is different from another. 2 And, you know, I hope that this proposal 3 makes its way through and we can get to a 4 point that we fix that going forward so they 5 have that predictability and are able to 6 continue to serve the students they serve. 7 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yeah. We 8 see this as an incredible opportunity. 9 I do have to say, most of you don't 10 know this, but I was the principal at 11 St. Agatha's, a residential program that even 12 had respite. So I know this population. And 13 I know the needs of these places. And we are 14 losing them. And when we don't have them, 15 children are either staying at home, going to 16 out of state. We have got to build this. 17 And all we keep doing is closing them. 18 And so when I get calls from a lot of 19 you, the parents are desperate. You know, 20 and the schools are closing. And so we are 21 not doing what we need to do to respond to 22 the families and the students that need our 23 support in this population. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you so much, 188 1 Commissioner. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 3 Assemblywoman Woerner for a second 4 round of three minutes. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you. 6 Thank you very much. 7 Just an area that no one's mentioned 8 yet is the New York State Summer School for 9 the Arts. So last year there was 10 insufficient funds in the Cultural Education 11 Fund, and there was no General Fund 12 allocation. The year before that, it was 13 virtual. 14 So I want to take you back three 15 years. How many students participated in 16 this program, which serves students 17 regardless of family need who are 18 artistically talented? 19 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So we will 20 share with you exactly. But just so you 21 know, two years in a row we've asked for the 22 funding. We did not receive -- the advocacy 23 was out there, there's no question about it. 24 But nonetheless, we did put it in our 189 1 priority, and we put it in our proposal. 2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Yes, I know. 3 That's why I'm probing here. 4 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: So we're 5 going to get you the actual numbers. 6 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: So you 7 want the numbers from three years ago? 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Yeah, when you 9 last held it in person. 10 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: Okay, 11 I don't have that with me at the moment, but 12 I can certainly get that to you. 13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: That would be 14 great. And along with that, if you could 15 also let me know what percentage of the 16 students who attended were scholarship 17 students, either full or in part, and what 18 distribution of students -- what the 19 geographic distribution was of those students 20 across the state. 21 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: Three 22 years ago. Yes, we can get that. 23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you very 24 much. 190 1 EX. DEP. CMMR. CATES-WILLIAMS: No 2 problem. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. So 4 that concludes -- a little earlier, a little 5 less time than last year, because I think 6 people were more observant of the time clock. 7 So thank you so much, Commissioner, 8 for being here -- yes? 9 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yes. I have 10 to thank you, because I did not even have to 11 ask for a bathroom break. 12 (Laughter.) 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: That -- that's 14 good. We had it penciled out on our thing. 15 So thank you, Commissioner, so much 16 for being here. I know there are a few 17 responses to some members that we'll be 18 receiving. And, you know, we look forward to 19 continuing to work with you as we move 20 forward on this budget. 21 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: And our 22 staff did take notes, and we will make sure 23 that every commitment we've made to get back 24 to you -- even to set up meetings -- we will 191 1 follow -- 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sure. Thank 3 you. And if you'd just send any follow-ups 4 to myself and Senator Krueger, we'll make 5 sure to distribute them to all members of the 6 committees. 7 NYSED COMMISSIONER ROSA: Yes. Thank 8 you. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very 11 much for your time today. And we also ask 12 everybody who's going to try to grab these 13 four people to talk to them, to take it out 14 to the hallway so our next guest can get to 15 the table. Thank you. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And we will be 17 calling our next speaker. The next witness 18 is Chancellor David Banks, the chancellor of 19 the New York City Department of Education. 20 (Off the record.) 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Can we please 22 take the conversations outside -- Assemblyman 23 Carroll, please -- as the chancellor takes 24 his seat. 192 1 Just for the members, we're 2 distributing the chancellor's remarks, and I 3 believe they'll be emailed to you in addition 4 shortly. 5 (Off the record.) 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Just a 7 reminder, as we are about to get started with 8 Chancellor Banks, to both the members and 9 chancellor -- welcome, thank you for being 10 here -- if people just -- I wasn't sure, 11 Chancellor, if you were here at the very 12 beginning, so you'll have 10 minutes to 13 present your testimony. It has just been 14 distributed to the members. Try not to read 15 it; 10 minutes goes fast, as many others 16 before you have figured out. 17 Then just a reminder, both to the 18 members and the DOE individuals who are here, 19 that the time limit on the clock -- keep an 20 eye on it -- it's both for the question and 21 the answer. So don't wait till 20 seconds to 22 say "What do you think?" 23 And with that, Chancellor, if you are 24 ready, you can begin your presentation. 193 1 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Great, 2 thank you. Thank you so much. 3 Good morning and thank you, Chair 4 Weinstein, Chair Krueger, Chair Benedetto, 5 Chair Liu, Chair Mayer, members of the 6 Assembly Ways and Means and Senate Finance 7 committees. My name is David Banks. I serve 8 as chancellor of New York City Public 9 Schools, and certainly grateful for the 10 opportunity to testify before you today on 11 the proposed 2024 New York State Education 12 Budget. 13 I'm joined here today also by our 14 First Deputy Chancellor Dan Weisberg; 15 Emma Vadehra, who's our chief operating 16 officer, and Seritta Scott, who's our chief 17 financial officer. And we're all very happy 18 to be here with you today. 19 So listen, much has changed since I 20 became chancellor a little over a year ago. 21 When we began, COVID-19 cases were 22 skyrocketing, so we urgently and thoughtfully 23 managed that process with precautions to make 24 our schools safe while allowing in-person 194 1 learning to continue. I know we're all happy 2 that we're in a different place now. While 3 keeping our students and staff safe and 4 healthy continues to be our highest priority, 5 we have been able to lift many of the 6 restrictions on our campuses, and we're happy 7 about that. 8 The last few years have taken a 9 significant toll on our students as well as 10 their families. Even before the pandemic, 11 many families were making the choice to leave 12 our schools, and that accelerated during the 13 crisis, not only in New York City but also in 14 urban districts across the country. 15 In the five years prior to my becoming 16 chancellor, we lost over 120,000 students and 17 families, and 70,000 in the last two years 18 prior to my becoming chancellor. The reasons 19 for leaving vary, but the answer to declining 20 enrollment is clear to me, that we have to 21 give our students and families the 22 opportunities and experiences that they want 23 in the classrooms, and we must do a better 24 job of showing them how our schools are 195 1 giving students the skills and knowledge that 2 will drive success in their lives after 3 school. 4 My administration is focused on 5 rebuilding trust with our families and 6 bringing families back to our schools. We 7 remain guided by the Four Pillars that I laid 8 out over a year ago to build trust with our 9 families and our New York City Public Schools 10 community. 11 Our first pillar is Reimagining the 12 Student Experience. We've created programs 13 like our Pathways Initiative, which is 14 designed to give our students real-world 15 experiences leading to a rewarding, engaging 16 career, as well as financial independence and 17 long-term economic security. 18 The second pillar is Scaling, 19 Sustaining, and Restoring What Works. That 20 includes expanding opportunities that were 21 historically denied to some of our most 22 vulnerable children. 23 This fall we announced a $205 million 24 dollar investment in proven, research-based 196 1 programs such as ASD Nest, Horizon, SEED, and 2 a path to improve outcomes for students with 3 special needs. Let me reiterate. These are 4 proven programs already in our schools that 5 educators and families identified as 6 life-changing for their children. 7 This winter we doubled down on this 8 commitment when we announced that we are 9 improving and aggressively adding early 10 childhood seats for this particular 11 population. 12 I want you to know that this 13 administration sees our students with 14 disabilities and is moving quickly to scale 15 the high-impact programs that our students 16 need to be successful in life. 17 Pillar Three is prioritizing wellness 18 and its link to student success. Both the 19 Mayor and I believe that when the whole child 20 is well, the family is well, and the whole 21 community is well. That is why we have an 22 ongoing commitment to increasing healthy 23 school food options and to more deeply 24 integrating mindfulness work in our 197 1 classrooms. 2 Now, one of the things, I have to tell 3 you, that keeps me up at night is the safety 4 of our children. Our students cannot be well 5 if they are concerned about their physical 6 safety even outside of our schools. As a 7 former teacher, school safety agent, and 8 principal, I take this work personally. We 9 cannot solve violence, particularly violence 10 impacting our young people, solely through 11 police efforts. Our schools have a vital 12 role to play in keeping our students safe and 13 supported, and I'm 100 percent committed to 14 that work. 15 We launched Project Pivot in response 16 to feedback that we've heard about the value 17 of collaborating with trusted community 18 groups to provide programming that really 19 engages and excites students. Project Pivot 20 offers counseling, mentoring and learning 21 opportunities through recreational outings, 22 sports, arts programs, and violence 23 intervention and prevention techniques. 24 Finally, Pillar Four is engaging 198 1 families to be our true partners. One of my 2 first decisions as chancellor was to 3 eliminate the redundant position of executive 4 superintendent and to fully empower the 5 district superintendent. I charged my 6 administration with going above and beyond 7 what is required by the law to ensure the 8 community had an active role in questioning 9 candidates and providing feedback. That 10 included elected officials who helped make 11 this process successful, many of whom are 12 sitting here today. 13 Most recently, we made good on our 14 promise from last spring to convene a working 15 group of volunteers representing parents, 16 advocates, union leaders, and school finance 17 experts from across our city to recommend 18 long-needed changes to the Fair Student 19 Funding formula. 20 Two weeks ago, we announced the 21 outcome of that working group. We are 22 proposing two important changes: Adding 23 funding weights for students in temporary 24 housing, and for schools that serve high 199 1 numbers of students with high needs. 2 These two changes are major steps 3 forward in ensuring our schools are funded 4 equitably, and they are the result of deep 5 collaboration with our communities. 6 Significantly, our decision to add a funding 7 weight for students in temporary housing is 8 the first to be implemented among the five 9 largest school districts in the nation, and 10 we welcome the opportunity for the state's 11 Foundation Aid formula to follow suit. 12 One area of our work represents all 13 four pillars -- our work getting back to the 14 basics of literacy and improving supports for 15 students with dyslexia and other print-based 16 disabilities. This work started with moving 17 all of our kindergarten through second-grade 18 classrooms to a foundation of phonics-based 19 literacy instruction. For too long our 20 schools have relied on methods that work for 21 some but not for all. Too many of our 22 students were left behind and struggled to 23 become fluent readers. I'm proud to report 24 that this work is well underway, guided by a 200 1 literacy council of educators, parents, and 2 experts. 3 Building on that work, Mayor Adams and 4 I announced the largest, most comprehensive 5 approach in the nation to supporting public 6 school students with dyslexia. For the first 7 time, all New York City public school 8 students will be assessed for risk of 9 dyslexia, supported in their neighborhood 10 school, and provided specialized instruction 11 through the development of special programs 12 and academies. 13 The work we've launched over the last 14 year will continue to grow in scope and in 15 impact. And our schools will continue to 16 innovate on this foundation, to look for and 17 address any barriers that may stand in the 18 way of a child becoming a proficient reader 19 and a confident learner. 20 So it's been an enormous pleasure for 21 me to visit and learn from many of you in 22 recent months. As many of you also know, 23 Mark Treyger, the former teacher and 24 Education Committee chair of the New York 201 1 City Council, is a significant part of our 2 team. He joins me here today as well. He 3 not only advises us through the lens of an 4 elected official, but he's helped us 5 strengthen vital partnerships across the 6 city. And I can't be more thankful to Mark. 7 He's joined me in meetings and school visits 8 with so many of you, including Chair Krueger 9 at the Julia Richman Education Complex. And 10 I greatly appreciated your support for the 11 decision to appoint Superintendent Kelly 12 McGuire in District 2. Not easy decisions to 13 make. 14 Chair Weinstein, who shared concerns 15 with my team related to enrollment declines 16 at local schools. 17 Chair Liu, who has championed the work 18 to advance AAPI curriculum in schools to 19 deepen student understanding while building a 20 more inclusive society. We support that, and 21 we're proud that we have been able to launch 22 a successful AAPI curriculum pilot and plan 23 to build on this important work. 24 Chair Benedetto, who joined us at a 202 1 recent education-related town hall meeting in 2 Co-Op City, where resident voices were front 3 and center. 4 Assemblymember Hyndman, who came with 5 us to Pathways College Preparatory School in 6 Queens, and has fiercely championed support 7 for schools in her district and across the 8 state. 9 Assemblymember Simon, who came to 10 Bridge Preparatory Charter School, which is 11 specifically geared to meeting the needs of 12 students with dyslexia and other 13 language-based learning needs. 14 And finally, Assemblymember Walker and 15 Senator Brisport, who have partnered with my 16 team to support the work of the 17 Shirley Chisolm Daycare Center. 18 These are just examples of some of the 19 work that we have engaged with many of you as 20 elected officials. 21 I want to thank the State Legislature 22 and Governor Hochul for continuing to 23 increase vital State Foundation Aid, while 24 approving the extension of mayoral 203 1 accountability, which has allowed our 2 administration to safely and fully reopen our 3 schools while making critical investments in 4 meeting the needs of our students in the 5 aftermath of the pandemic. 6 Mayoral accountability allowed us to 7 swiftly and strategically support newly 8 arrived New Yorkers who are seeking asylum. 9 Last summer the city administration launched 10 Project Open Arms to coordinate the city's 11 efforts to immediately enroll and support 12 newly arrived students. Additionally, I 13 immediately appointed a central leader to 14 ensure that support reached our students, 15 schools, and families as quickly and 16 effectively as possible. 17 So there's more in my opening remarks. 18 I will be respectful of the time. I think 19 you all have a copy of the testimony, and I 20 invite you to read it. 21 And with that, I'm ready to take any 22 questions. Thank you. 23 (Scattered applause.) 24 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I left out "no 204 1 clapping" on our -- 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: (Inaudible.) 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to our 4 chair of Education, Assemblyman Benedetto. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Who has great, 6 great problems -- oh -- putting on the 7 microphone. 8 (Laughter.) 9 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: 10 Mr. Chancellor, thank you so much for coming 11 on down here, and thank you for your 12 appearance in Co-Op City a few weeks ago. We 13 were enriched by it all. 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Listen, I 16 applaud you on your efforts in dyslexia and 17 in sorting out the children who may have it, 18 and trying to deal with them at a very early 19 age. You have started these programs. Can 20 you give me a quick update there? 21 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah, and 22 listen, I want to take a moment here and also 23 really thank member Carroll. We have met 24 with him from very early on. He reached out, 205 1 and my team has worked closely with him. 2 He's expert in this area. And it is personal 3 with him. He has shared with us places that 4 are demonstrating best practice, and we're 5 trying to scale that body of work. In fact, 6 we're getting ready to have a press 7 conference tomorrow to announce some new 8 initiatives that we're doing in that space as 9 well. I want to thank you for that. 10 But we have convened a group of 11 experts who have really helped us to drive a 12 long-term plan in this place and space. Our 13 teachers have been trained in looking for and 14 how do we screen for dyslexia, particularly 15 in the K-2 space. The goal, again, for us is 16 to ensure that every child can read on grade 17 level no later than the third grade. That is 18 our focus. It's what we refer -- the theme 19 is "Bright Starts" for us. And so under the 20 leadership of our Deputy Chancellor Carolyne 21 Quintana, she is really driving this work all 22 around the city. 23 Every superintendent in the city is 24 being held accountable for performance in 206 1 this particular space. We cannot be 2 successful on all the other things that we're 3 trying to do in our schools if we're not 4 ensuring that everybody can read on grade 5 level. And that's a major focus for us. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Thank you. 7 The State Legislature, in its wisdom, 8 imposed upon you and the New York City school 9 system a class size reduction, limit, going 10 forward. How is that going? And what 11 challenges do you foresee as you progress? 12 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: So we are 13 working together with all the parties who are 14 deeply vested in this -- our teachers' union, 15 our parents, our schools, our educators as 16 well. We are going to have -- the next two 17 years, we think we're going to have a bright 18 enough light on this space that will allow us 19 to be able to continue to ensure that the 20 class size mandate that you all have 21 instituted will be fine. We'll be fine over 22 the next two years. But with all candor, my 23 deep concern is what happens in Years 3 24 through 5. 207 1 This is a -- it's an area of real 2 challenge. Listen, as the chancellor -- no 3 chancellor wants to argue against class size 4 and reducing class size. We'd all love to 5 have the smallest class sizes that we could 6 possibly have. And this body has seen to it 7 that you've put it in the law. 8 The challenge for us is going to be -- 9 we've heard from many parents and we've heard 10 from many of our principals and school 11 leaders that they're going to wind up having 12 to make some very difficult choices on the 13 back end of this implementation timeline. 14 What does that mean? That means by 15 the time we get to Years 3, 4 and 5, schools 16 are going to have to comply with the law in a 17 way that is going to force them to make 18 difficult choices. So let me tell you what I 19 mean. 20 The current class size for right now 21 for students in kindergarten through 22 3rd grade in New York City public schools, we 23 have an average class size right now, as we 24 sit here today, of 22.2. Most principals 208 1 would tell you that's -- that works well 2 enough for them. The mandate from this law 3 is that it be 20. So what that means is 4 we've taken any level of discretion away from 5 the school leaders. So if you have -- if 6 you're teaching second grade and you have 7 22 kids in the class, you will be forced to 8 hire another teacher because you are above 9 the limit. That will not be left to the 10 discretion of the school leader. 11 Once that happens, our projections -- 12 maybe some folks would differ with that -- 13 our projections are that in order for us to 14 fully meet this over the course of the five 15 years, we are going to have to add and hire 16 an additional at least 7,000 teachers in 17 order for us to meet the mandate. 18 In doing that, there are going to be 19 other decisions that are going to have to be 20 made by school leaders. You may not be able 21 to keep the art teacher, perhaps, that you 22 wanted to keep because you're going to have 23 to hire the additional second-grade teacher 24 because you're two students over the number. 209 1 Those are the things that we're 2 grappling with. They're not immediate 3 concerns for us right now. We strongly 4 believe that the next two years, we're good. 5 It's by the time we hit Year 3 -- and I stay 6 up thinking about what the long range is 7 going to look like on that. So we are -- 8 we're going to be announcing a new task force 9 of -- a working group of parents, school 10 leaders and other interested parties. 11 Because I've heard from a wide range of 12 parents who have differing opinions on this, 13 and I want to make sure that they are heard. 14 This body had made it very clear, from 15 the moment that I became chancellor, that 16 parent involvement and parent voice was 17 critically important to all of you. And it 18 is important to me. And I'm going to honor 19 that, because I'm going to absolutely engage 20 parents and families in this process, much 21 like I have done with all the other 22 initiatives that I've done. 23 Many parents feel that they were not 24 heard on this, as this law was developed. 210 1 But they're going to hear from me. And they 2 will absolutely be at the table alongside me 3 as we figure out the best way to implement 4 this. 5 So I would say that in the coming days 6 you'll hear further from me and you will hear 7 further from the community on how they think 8 that we should roll this out. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Thank you. 10 Further complicating things, I would 11 think, with the Governor's proposal in doing 12 away with the regional distinction in the 13 caps on charters -- if that would go through, 14 it would allow up to maybe a hundred-plus new 15 charters, and new charters coming into the 16 City of New York and requesting space within 17 the schools, further limiting your ability to 18 accommodate to the law. 19 Comments on that? 20 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Listen, I 21 was appointed by the mayor to be the 22 chancellor of the public school system, and 23 with that, my overarching responsibility is 24 in fact to the students of the traditional 211 1 public schools. 2 I've got great relationships with many 3 of the charter school leaders around the 4 city, and I have said to them on many 5 occasions that my goal is that we figure out 6 how do we work together, how do we share best 7 practice so that everybody wins. I'm not 8 interested in a system of winners and losers. 9 And I think it's an old argument, and it's a 10 tired argument in many ways, of this fight, 11 this pitched battle. 12 At the end of the day, the decision on 13 whether the cap gets lifted or what the 14 Governor has proposed -- it's not my 15 proposal. And the ultimate decision on what 16 happens with that ultimately rests with you 17 and with this body. I will work with whoever 18 I need to work with on behalf of all the 19 children, because that's what my major focus 20 is really all about. Does it present 21 challenges? Of course it presents challenges 22 for us. Any time we do collocations, there 23 are challenges. There are challenges with 24 just collocations of just traditional public 212 1 schools as well. 2 So the challenge is always set before 3 us. But, you know, this has been a -- this 4 has been kind of a pitched issue for many, 5 many years, and in some ways I'm quite tired 6 of it, to be honest with you. You know? I 7 really spend most of my waking moments very 8 focused on how I can help these kids to read. 9 Whether we have charter schools, we don't 10 have charter schools, or whatever we've got, 11 65 percent of Black and brown children never 12 achieve reading proficiency in this system. 13 And I just consider that outrageous. And I 14 don't want to have that attached to my 15 administration or my name or my legacy. 16 And so I'm doing everything that I can 17 possibly do to solve for that. And I think 18 that existing charters can play a role in 19 that. Many of them are doing a great job as 20 well. But the expansion, lifting of the cap, 21 all those issues, are not for me. I know the 22 Mayor will be before you, I think next week, 23 and probably better for him to respond to 24 that. In this system of mayoral 213 1 accountability, I work closely with the 2 Mayor, and I take a lot of my direction from 3 him with respect to those significant 4 political decisions, and I'm just going to do 5 the best job that I can. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: 7 Mr. Chancellor, thank you for your time. 8 Thank you. 9 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you, 10 Chair Benedetto. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 12 We go to the Senate. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 14 We're going to start with Chair John 15 Liu of the New York City Education Committee. 16 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 Welcome once again, Mr. Chancellor. 18 Remember a year ago -- 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yes. 20 SENATOR LIU: -- I said 21 "Congratulations, and you have my deepest 22 condolences." A year later, do you know what 23 I'm talking about? (Laughing.) Okay. 24 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Absolutely. 214 1 SENATOR LIU: Thank you very much. 2 And, you know, let me start off by 3 saying that there have been a lot of great 4 things that your administration has done. 5 You know, you got us out of the COVID crisis. 6 I think this was a decision recently which I 7 think will, you know, cause some concern and 8 at the same time make a lot of other parents 9 happy. That's the kind of situation you're 10 in, right? 11 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 12 right. 13 SENATOR LIU: The dyslexia and what 14 you've done with our public schools and 15 Mayor Adams talking about his personal 16 experience, I think that has sent a really 17 strong message to all the kids and families 18 in the City of New York that they will have 19 the opportunity to learn like everybody else. 20 So just want to start off on a good 21 note. 22 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I 23 appreciate it. 24 SENATOR LIU: Okay. So let's get to 215 1 some of the questions that Chair Benedetto 2 has already started asking you. 3 Your response to his question about 4 our class-size legislation is troubling to 5 me. It's actually very troubling, because 6 you couch it in the terms of schools -- 7 meaning schools and principals -- having to 8 make decisions about what they're going to 9 do, when in fact the plan and the decisions 10 are going to be -- are going to rest on you. 11 The Department of Education has to come up 12 with the plan. You don't leave it to 13 individual schools. 14 And I've spoken with dozens of 15 principals, in my area as well as throughout 16 the city, who are concerned about the 17 class-size issue, and rightfully so. Because 18 they are concerned that the Department of 19 Education, that they're going to get an email 20 from the chancellor that says, These are your 21 new limitations, you're now going to have to 22 figure out how to get there in the next five 23 or six years. 24 That's not how this is supposed to 216 1 work, Mr. Chancellor. This is supposed to 2 work in the following manner. A school will 3 have to comply with the class sizes and, to 4 the extent that that school needs to create 5 more space internally, you've got to help 6 them with that. And to the extent that there 7 is absolutely no more space within a school 8 building, in some cases there are -- there is 9 additional land associated with that school. 10 Build out that school, an extension, a new 11 wing. 12 And in the cases where the school has 13 absolutely no internal space and no outside 14 land to build upon, you've got to build more 15 schools. That's what this has always been 16 about. You know, you look in my area, 17 Northeast Queens, one of the most overcrowded 18 areas, we've got large class sizes, parents 19 are concerned about this mandate because it 20 may mean that fewer children will be able to 21 attend those schools. 22 But yet you look at the DOE capital 23 plan. There's one school that's going to be 24 under construction over the next 10 years. 217 1 That is not a way to alleviate the 2 overcrowding problem. 3 So I implore you, I plead with you, 4 Mr. Chancellor, don't just simply email the 5 principals and tell them they've got to deal 6 with this. You and your team have to deal 7 with this. And, you know, this is -- you 8 mentioned the 22-student versus 20-student 9 threshold. You know, in the lower grades our 10 legislation requires that 20-student limit. 11 You may not remember where we got that from. 12 Does any of your team know where we got those 13 limitations from, the 20, 23, and 25 students 14 per class? Do you think that I or any of our 15 legislators just simply rolled the dice and 16 said these were good numbers? 17 Well, if none of you know where those 18 numbers came from, the numbers came from the 19 New York City Department of Education. We 20 can give you the documents. 21 The point -- the issue is that they 22 are, you know, they're about 15 years old at 23 this point, long preceding your tenure. And 24 this was never a problem of your making, but 218 1 it is a problem that you have to address. 2 Fifteen years ago the Department of Education 3 provided documents to the State Education 4 Department justifying how much more 5 Foundation Aid the Department of Education 6 would need in order to provide a sound, basic 7 education. And those Department of Education 8 documents stipulated the numerical 9 limitations of 20, 23, and 25 students per 10 class, depending on the grade level. 11 Our legislation simply took those 12 recommendations and codified them. The 13 reason we had to pass that limitation is 14 because mayor after mayor and chancellor 15 after chancellor, at least in the four years 16 that I've been in this body, have responded 17 to my questions, to Senator Jackson's 18 questions, to other colleagues' questions 19 about what New York City is doing to reduce 20 class sizes in order to provide that sound, 21 basic education. 22 And the mayor and the chancellor, 23 whoever that happened to be at the time, 24 would always respond: "We would love to 219 1 reduce class sizes, but you still owe us 2 Foundation Aid." Well, guess what? This 3 year we're fully funding the Foundation Aid. 4 So I take great issue with you and the 5 Mayor saying that that was an unfunded 6 mandate, when in fact the Foundation Aid 7 calculations, which we're now fully funding, 8 were based in part on those classroom 9 limitations. 10 So I just, you know -- I'll give you a 11 chance to respond if you'd like, but I think 12 this is an issue that the Department of 13 Education and City Hall needs to really get 14 its arms around and fix. And if you need 15 more stuff, tell us what you need. But we're 16 already giving you a billion dollars more 17 each year in Foundation Aid prior -- I'm 18 sorry, after this legislation was passed. 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: No, listen, 20 probably no need to go back-and-forth on it. 21 The bill is already passed, right? So it is 22 a law. We are going to have to do everything 23 that we can to implement it. 24 The question that was raised was 220 1 around what challenges did I foresee. And so 2 you may in fact have the class size, and we 3 will meet the mandate of what has been 4 prescribed by the law. We're legally bound 5 to do that. 6 The question is going to be does it 7 affect anything else. That's what my concern 8 is, that you may in fact have smaller class 9 sizes but have a body of school leadership 10 and parents up in arms because they also now 11 are not going to have as many Community 12 Schools perhaps as they wanted. Or they're 13 not going to be able to have the arts and 14 music programs that they had. 15 But the sense that we're going to have 16 smaller class sizes and we're going to have 17 everything else that we also wanted, that's 18 the challenge. That's why I said the next 19 couple of years, I think we're okay. But I 20 would welcome an opportunity to do a deeper 21 dive on this. I didn't see a financial 22 impact statement associated with the bill 23 that was tied to this stuff -- 24 (Overtalk.) 221 1 SENATOR LIU: But let's talk about the 2 finances just for a couple of minutes here, 3 right? You yourself had said that in order 4 to comply with the class size mandates -- 5 which, again, came from the Department of 6 Education itself, in the calculation of 7 Foundation Aid in the first place -- 8 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Many years 9 before I was here, but -- 10 SENATOR LIU: Understood. I said this 11 was not a problem that you created. 12 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 13 right. 14 SENATOR LIU: But it is a problem that 15 is your responsibility to address. 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Sure. 17 SENATOR LIU: Okay. And that's what 18 we're addressing here. 19 After the class-size mandate 20 legislation was passed, last year, in fiscal 21 '23 -- actually, this year that we're coming 22 up on the end of -- New York City got an 23 additional $600 million in Foundation Aid. 24 This coming year I fully expect, because the 222 1 Governor fully supports it and we have a 2 tremendous amount of support in the 3 Legislature, that the City of New York will 4 get, on top of last year's increase, which 5 was an increase on top of the previous year, 6 this coming year you will -- the City of 7 New York will get yet another $600 million in 8 Foundation Aid. 9 So just since we have this class-size 10 discussion, the City of New York is going to 11 get 1.2 billion a year more in Foundation 12 Aid, which was always supposed to provide 13 that sound, basic education which cannot be 14 achieved if class sizes are excessively 15 large, by DOE's own definitions. 16 So I ask you, you know, there's not 17 that much time left, but I ask you to stop 18 thinking about this as an unfunded mandate or 19 something that was not your problem. It 20 wasn't your problem; you never created it. 21 But it is a challenge that you need to fix. 22 And I have every expectation that you're able 23 to do so if you'd just simply get past the 24 unfunded mandate idea and the issue -- the 223 1 idea that it's up to the schools to fix it 2 themselves. No, they can't fix it 3 themselves. You need to work hand in hand 4 with the principals to make sure that the 5 goals are achieved. 6 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: And we 7 will. We're going to do everything that we 8 possibly can, and we're going to engage those 9 principals and the parents in this process as 10 well, for sure. 11 SENATOR LIU: Thank you. 12 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you, 13 sir. 14 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 16 Next, Assembly. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Jo Anne Simon, 18 three minutes. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Microphone. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: There we go, 22 sorry. It's not as sensitive as I'd like it 23 to be. 24 I have a couple of questions, 224 1 actually, for you, one of which goes to the 2 issue that Senator Liu was discussing about 3 class size, and the fact that there are no 4 visible signs that the schools are doing 5 anything to plan for this. Now, if you want 6 to have some sort of study, you guys need to 7 talk about that. So I wanted to say that. 8 And the other thing I want to know is 9 I know there's been some training of people 10 with dyslexia, like a two-hour introductory 11 kind of thing. If you could tell me exactly 12 who that was, whether it's the reading 13 teachers, the reading coaches, whatever. 14 And then the other thing is we've got 15 half a school year gone by, but there have 16 been no letters sent yet to families of 17 students with disabilities letting them know 18 about this new section in the IEP that was 19 created and the availability of those 20 services for students who have really 21 suffered learning loss through the pandemic. 22 And so I'd like to know about the 23 availability -- what you're doing to tell 24 parents about the availability of 225 1 compensatory services and this new section 2 that's going to be on everyone's IEPs. 3 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: Good 4 afternoon, everybody. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Hi. 6 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: And 7 good afternoon, Assemblymember Simon. 8 So the issue of compensatory services 9 is something that our folks are working on 10 very, very hard. We'll find out exactly what 11 the plan is on communication. This is really 12 important. As you say, we want to make sure 13 that every family that has a student with a 14 disability understands that they are entitled 15 to these services. They are in fact being 16 provided, but we want to make sure that 17 they're available more widely. 18 I'd also just note, parenthetically, 19 as you well know, this also is the subject of 20 active litigation, so we're making sure that 21 we're respectful of the court's rule on this 22 as well. But this is something that we are 23 working on right now as we speak. 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And do you know 226 1 how many students have been found eligible 2 this year for those compensatory services? 3 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: I'm 4 sorry -- 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: The number of 6 students that have been failing thus far. 7 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: I 8 don't have that, but we'll get that right to 9 you. 10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. 11 Appreciate it. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 13 Chair of Education Senator Shelley 14 Mayer, 10 minutes. 15 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. Thank you 16 very much. And, Mr. Chancellor, good to see 17 you -- 18 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Good to see 19 you. 20 SENATOR MAYER: -- and your team, as 21 always. 22 First question -- and as you said, you 23 know, you're sort of tired of this charter 24 conversation. But it is before us in the 227 1 Legislature. So how much did New York City 2 DOE spend last year on charter school costs 3 for children who went to charter schools? 4 DOE CFO SCOTT: Can you hear me? 5 SENATOR MAYER: Yes. 6 DOE CFO SCOTT: Thank you. So we 7 spent nearly -- 8 SENATOR MAYER: Can you pull it 9 closer? 10 DOE CFO SCOTT: Sure. Is this better? 11 SENATOR MAYER: Yes. 12 DOE CFO SCOTT: So we spent nearly 13 $3 billion last year. 14 SENATOR MAYER: I could not hear. 15 DOE CFO SCOTT: Can you hear me? Is 16 that better? Yes, okay. 17 So we spent roughly $3 billion last 18 year. 19 SENATOR MAYER: Okay, just to follow 20 up. So you spent -- I think the New York 21 City Comptroller said 2.9, so 3 billion is 22 about it. And is that about 10 percent of 23 the New York City DOE's budget? 24 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, the 228 1 overarching budget is, what, 37.6 billion. 2 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. Okay. And with 3 respect to rent costs that the city picked up 4 for charters that you have to pay rent for, 5 what is that cost for last year? 6 DOE CFO SCOTT: That's roughly 7 $200 million. 8 SENATOR MAYER: Say it again? 9 DOE CFO SCOTT: That's roughly 10 $200 million. 11 SENATOR MAYER: $200 million. 12 And with respect to collocation, how 13 many charters are collocated in traditional 14 public school buildings? 15 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: Sorry 16 about the delay, Chair. About 146 charter 17 schools are collocated in DOE sites. 18 SENATOR MAYER: And of those, do you 19 have the breakdown of the grade levels of 20 those particular schools? 21 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: We 22 don't have that with us, but we'll get that 23 to you very quickly, Chair. 24 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. And I 229 1 appreciate, Chancellor, that you would like 2 not to weigh in on this conversation and that 3 we should ask the Mayor, but with respect to 4 your focus on children in traditional public 5 schools, as you announced it, would you agree 6 that an increase in the number of charter 7 schools above the current cap would 8 potentially impact the finances of the 9 New York City DOE with respect to providing 10 the range of services you have led on, and 11 would minimize the amount of money you have 12 to spend on those traditional public school 13 students? 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah, I 15 think it presents -- it does present 16 challenges for us, absolutely. And so when I 17 said I didn't want to weigh in, what I 18 essentially meant here is that the ultimate 19 decision around whether or not you increase 20 the cap or lift the cap is not my decision 21 and that my focus is really on the young 22 people that we're working on in the 23 traditional public schools. 24 But I also -- I visit charter schools, 230 1 I engage with charter school leaders as well. 2 I don't see this as an us and them for my 3 purposes. But I do recognize the challenge 4 that we do have, particularly as relates to 5 collocation. And even when we don't have to 6 collocate, we're still mandated by law, for 7 schools that are approved as charters, to pay 8 for the rent for where they're going. And so 9 that does have an effect on our overarching 10 budget and what we can do. That's for 11 certain. 12 SENATOR MAYER: Do you have an opinion 13 on the current law which allows, for example, 14 a charter that is K-3, to expand its grade 15 levels without going back for additional 16 approval? 17 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I don't 18 have a particular opinion on that one way or 19 the other. If a charter has been doing good 20 work and the parents and the families in the 21 community support that charter and want to 22 see the expansion of that charter, I say far 23 be it from me to say that, you know, I know 24 best for those parents and those families. 231 1 What I'm trying to do, and I think 2 this was the general tone of what I was 3 trying to say, is that my focus has been on 4 these traditional public schools and that we 5 don't -- I'm working every day really hard to 6 try and improve the quality of those schools. 7 Those are the schools that were put under my 8 charge. 9 And so I'm not anti-charter, I don't 10 have any issues with any one. I simply want 11 to ensure that I'm providing the level of 12 support and investments to help these kids 13 who are sitting in the traditional public 14 schools. That is what my responsibility is. 15 And I need all the resources and the dollars 16 that I can get to do that. And we need as 17 much support from the families and the 18 communities. 19 And I also want to make the -- our 20 schools every bit as much of a choice as 21 parents make to go to a charter school. I 22 see that also as part of my responsibility. 23 And I think lots of times parents don't 24 choose to go to a traditional public school 232 1 because oftentimes they're also not aware of 2 how wonderful and unique some of these 3 schools really are. We have not had a good 4 marketing campaign for the traditional public 5 schools. And I think lots of charters -- not 6 all of them, but many of the charters have a 7 very strong marketing strategy. And God 8 bless them. I want to increase that for us. 9 I want to be able to tell the stories 10 of the wonderful work that is going on in 11 our -- we have some of the best schools in 12 this country as traditional public schools, 13 that people don't know anything about. And 14 so that's a big part of what we're trying to 15 do is to change this narrative around our 16 public -- and I'll give you a classic 17 example. I don't refer to it anymore as the 18 DOE, and I invite you to join me in that. I 19 refer to it, as you can see on my pin, New 20 York City Public Schools. 21 The DOE is a bureaucracy. When you 22 say it, it sounds cold and uncaring. If I 23 said -- if I asked you to go to Chicago, you 24 would hear the name of their school system as 233 1 Chicago Public Schools. If you go to Denver, 2 it's Denver Public Schools. It's Atlanta 3 Public Schools. We're the only school system 4 in the entire nation that refers to ourselves 5 as a department of. That's a federal thing. 6 That's a -- that's a bureaucracy. If you 7 want parents to feel more engaged, language 8 matters as well. 9 And so I know it's an old habit, it's 10 very easy to say DOE, but I also invite all 11 of you to join us in that process of shifting 12 from DOE and we're referring to it as 13 New York City Public Schools. It lands 14 differently on parents and families when they 15 hear that. 16 That is just one step of what we're 17 trying to do, to make the parents' experience 18 much more user-friendly, much more warm and 19 engaging, while still academically rigorous. 20 And telling our parents and communities about 21 the phenomenal schools that we have. And 22 many of them I've visited with some of the 23 members in this room who have got great 24 schools in their district. 234 1 But we've not done a good enough job. 2 We're working really hard to lift that up, 3 Chair. 4 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. Thank you. 5 I don't mean to rush you, but we have limited 6 time. 7 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I know. 8 SENATOR MAYER: So, question, how many 9 new migrant children will you have -- do you 10 currently have or you anticipate having over 11 the next school year? What is the 12 anticipated cost associated with that? 13 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, our 14 rough estimate is it's over 12, 13,000 now. 15 And when I say rough estimate, what I mean by 16 that is we don't check students for their 17 immigration status coming in. So we're 18 working on a different set of criteria -- 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I understand. 20 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: -- as we 21 gather that intel. 22 But the numbers are growing every day, 23 and so I think the latest count I got was 24 somewhere in the 13,000 range of students who 235 1 are actually in our classes -- maybe a little 2 bit higher, even, now. 3 But with respect to costs and 4 associated costs with that -- 5 DOE CFO SCOTT: So in terms of the 6 associated costs with those students, we're 7 spending at this point about $20 million. 8 SENATOR MAYER: $20 million dollars. 9 DOE CFO SCOTT: Yes. 10 SENATOR MAYER: And these were costs 11 that honestly the New York City Public 12 Schools did not anticipate when you were 13 budgeting for this year in the prior year. 14 That's why I'm asking about that. 15 DOE CFO SCOTT: That's correct. 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yes, we 17 certainly did not anticipate this -- 18 SENATOR MAYER: And in the Governor's 19 Executive Budget I don't recall there being 20 an additional appropriation for the costs 21 associated with these children, is that 22 right? 23 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: As far as 24 we are aware, right? 236 1 DOE CFO SCOTT: Yup. Yup. As far as 2 we understand. 3 SENATOR MAYER: With respect to mental 4 health funding for New York City Public 5 Schools, Commissioner Rosa talked a little 6 bit about the RECOVS program that we granted 7 last year, and unfortunately the money has 8 not gone out the door for a number of 9 reasons. 10 What are you doing, in my minute left, 11 to address some of the mental health and 12 social-emotional needs as a result of COVID 13 school issues? 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah. A 15 certain number of things. 16 So first of all, one of the things 17 that we did in New York City and together 18 working with New York City Council, we 19 ensured that every school in New York City 20 actually has the funding to hire a social 21 worker in their schools, which was a huge 22 lift for our schools. And very timely, 23 particularly to try to meet this moment here. 24 And so that is something that we're very, 237 1 very proud of. 2 We've enhanced a number of Community 3 Schools, which have built in -- many of them 4 have built in those additional supports and 5 resources for young people who are struggling 6 mentally. We're up to about 400 Community 7 Schools now, an increase since I've come in 8 of an additional 75, and growing. 9 We launched something that we call 10 Project Pivot, which plays multiple purposes. 11 And Project Pivot is in how many schools now 12 that we've launched? About 130 schools. 13 Project Pivot, it's designed to help meet the 14 safety need. We have lots of shootings, as 15 you can see, on a daily basis in this city. 16 And so we've engaged community-based 17 organizations, they're providing safe 18 passage, but many of them are also providing 19 mental health supports for our kids as well. 20 We're really getting ready to launch a 21 mindfulness initiative. We're going to be -- 22 breathing exercise, and teaching kids how to 23 center themselves. This is no small thing. 24 This is something coming directly from the 238 1 Mayor, and a huge initiative of his and 2 something that we are -- we're very concerned 3 of and very, very focused on. 4 And the last thing I will say on that 5 issue as well -- it's not been launched yet, 6 but it's coming. And when the Mayor comes, 7 maybe you can ask him about this, together 8 with the Department of Health & Mental 9 Hygiene, a program for high schoolers for -- 10 a program for tele-mental health services. A 11 young person that's feeling themselves in 12 crisis being able to, right on their phone, 13 be able to connect with an expert and 14 somebody -- you don't have to set up an 15 appointment, you don't have to go anywhere. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Chancellor, we're 17 going to have to cut you off -- 18 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: You're in 19 crisis in that moment, you'll be able to -- 20 I'm so sorry. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You've used up 22 your time for now, I'm sorry. 23 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, 239 1 Shelley. 2 Assembly. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman 4 Bichotte Hermelyn. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: 6 Hello, Chancellor Banks and team. Thank you 7 for being here. 8 And I want to just thank you, 9 Chancellor, for your leadership, your 10 investment in children, in our school system 11 and just -- all over New York City, and just 12 for your leadership team as well. 13 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: I do 15 want to give a shout out to your Deputy 16 Chancellor Kenita Lloyd and your team member 17 there, Mark Treyger, who's a former 18 Councilmember, chair of the Education 19 Committee, and my former colleague. And also 20 your Chief Equity Officer Karine Apollon, 21 who's been doing a lot of efforts around 22 MWBE. 23 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yes. 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: I 240 1 have different questions. I wanted to talk a 2 little bit about the Diwali holiday. I know 3 that there's support from the Department of 4 Education as well as Mayor Eric Adams on a 5 Diwali holiday. And as you know, it's to be 6 an official school holiday supporting Hindu, 7 Sikh, Buddhist and Jain, to recognize that. 8 And the legislation is sponsored by my 9 colleague Assemblymember Jenifer Rajkumar and 10 Senator Joe Addabbo. By the way, fun fact, I 11 got engaged on Diwali in 2020, by the way. 12 And my son has some South Asian lineage. 13 I wanted to say that this legislation 14 right now seeks to repeal the Brooklyn-Queens 15 Day. And I wanted you to just speak a little 16 bit about why the repeal of Brooklyn-Queens 17 Day is appropriate, and why is it important 18 to accomplish this year. 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: So first of 20 all I would say that the recognition of 21 Diwali as a citywide holiday I think is a 22 great idea. It is something that I fully 23 support; it's something that the Mayor fully 24 supports. The challenge that we have is the 241 1 number of days that we must meet for all of 2 our students. 3 No matter what, we have to ensure that 4 our students are in school for 180 days. 5 There are all kind of financial implications 6 if we do not meet the 180-day mark. And so 7 when you start to add up all the other days, 8 particularly over the last several years, the 9 additional holidays where we are closing 10 schools, it has reduced the buffer that we 11 have. Because when we recognize all of these 12 holidays -- and we should -- if we wind up 13 with a major snowstorm and nobody -- or kids 14 can't come to school, or some other emergency 15 that ensures that kids can't come to school 16 for whatever that reason might be, we are now 17 faced with the dire circumstance of 18 potentially not meeting the 180-day mark. 19 Now, we're trying to buffer that with 20 our virtual learning opportunities, and 21 that's one of -- I think one of the benefits 22 that came out of the pandemic, is that our 23 schools are much more versed now in how to do 24 school virtually, at least for a day or two. 242 1 And so we're trying to position 2 ourselves, and we've been working really 3 hard, that if an emergency presents itself, 4 that we don't have to declare it a total 5 non-school day, but it can be a virtual 6 school day, which would still count. 7 The point I'm making here is simply 8 that we are running out of days. And we took 9 a look at Brooklyn-Queens Day, also called 10 Anniversary Day -- you know, it's a bit of an 11 archaic day that, you know -- all the kids in 12 Brooklyn and Queens love to have the day off, 13 but I don't know that it has any much more 14 significance than that. That's a day that 15 you could certainly, as a body, look at to 16 say if you get rid of that day, you can honor 17 Diwali. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN BICHOTTE HERMELYN: 19 Thank you. 20 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: To the Senate. 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very 23 much. 24 Chair Iwen Chu, for Libraries. 243 1 SENATOR CHU: Thank you, Madam Leader. 2 Yes, thank you, Chair. 3 How are you, Chancellor? Good to see 4 you here. 5 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Great, how 6 are you? Thank you. 7 SENATOR CHU: It's regarding -- I have 8 a question about the class size. I know you 9 just mentioned average New York City school 10 class is 22 students. But I happen to 11 represent the most crowded district in 12 Southern Brooklyn. It's 90 percent of the 13 schools -- public schools in my district, 14 they're overcrowded. They're utilized -- 15 they're 125 percent overutilized. And we're 16 talking about the Queens District 25, 17 District 26, they're also 90 percent and 18 80 percent overutilized. 19 So how do we address this? Because 20 being an educator, we don't talk about 21 average. We also need to take care about the 22 two extremes, those that are under, those 23 that are over. How do we address those over 24 capacity? My daughter, her school is an 244 1 amazing public school. But this one year, 2 her lunch break is at 9:45 in the morning. 3 That's how we are over capacity. Every 4 student, every class is at 30 to 33 kids in 5 the class. 6 So I understand average in New York 7 City is 22 students, but we're talking about 8 certain districts where it's 30 to 33 kids. 9 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I 10 appreciate that. And I'm in complete 11 agreement with you. And we're going to do 12 everything we can, we're going to work to get 13 those numbers down. We are now mandated to 14 do that. And we will do that, through 15 whatever means that we have to do it. 16 So if that's creating more schools, 17 adding more classrooms, hiring more teachers, 18 we're going to do what we need to do to meet 19 the mandate. 20 Prior to the law being finalized, the 21 argument that we were making was to say -- 22 and I get the point about average -- that 23 there are certain districts in the city which 24 have significant overcrowding issues. Let us 245 1 work to solve those. That would have been 2 our preference. We think it would have been 3 a lot less costly to do that, particularly at 4 the high school level, where a lot of the 5 high schools are bursting at the seams -- 6 let's focus on the high schools. 7 But the law says it's everybody, every 8 class, K through 12. Which, again, it's 9 within your prerogative to do that, and you 10 have as a body. It is now the law. And 11 we've been given a five-year run, starting in 12 September, to make sure that we are 13 implementing that. And we are going to do 14 that. 15 I was just asked initially just around 16 the challenges that were associated with it, 17 and I think the challenges are real. I think 18 ultimately we're going to get the class size 19 down. The issue is simply going to be do we 20 get the class size down and schools are going 21 to lose other opportunities. And when you 22 ask -- when I've spoken to many principals -- 23 not all, but I've spoken to many principals 24 who have said to me -- and parents -- class 246 1 size is not an issue for us, we wanted to see 2 additional funding for arts programs and 3 music programs. But now that funding, you 4 know, I'm going to have to address the 5 class-size issue. 6 I know we'd like to assume that we're 7 going to be able to do it all. We will see. 8 That's why I just raised it -- I didn't sound 9 the alarm, I simply said, we've got a couple 10 of years to look at this because we -- what 11 we're projecting with our numbers is that 12 Years 3, 4, 5 is when you're going to see a 13 crunch. And maybe we can get ahead of that. 14 That's the reason why I'm going to start to 15 bring these parents and community members, 16 educators, together, and we're going to do 17 everything we can to try to mitigate all of 18 it. 19 SENATOR CHU: I appreciate that. I 20 just want to share that I used to serve on 21 CC20, and that was about five to six years 22 ago, and that overcrowding issue has been 23 over a decade. And that specific district, 24 we were there in need of over 10,000 seats. 247 1 And my kid, she's right now in high 2 school, and we're talking about a decade. So 3 our kids, their education being an 4 overcrowded situation over a decade. 5 So I don't see like -- I understand 6 maybe -- we also would like to address art, 7 music, enrichment, yes. But kids' education 8 in a crowded situation also needs to be 9 addressed. 10 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I got it. 11 SENATOR CHU: The next one is about 12 your opening remarks. I'm happy to see many 13 things here, but there's one thing I 14 specifically would like to point out. It's 15 about the Gifted & Talented program. I 16 appreciate last year you opened and expanded 17 100 seats in the citywide. I would like to 18 know, do you know roughly right now in 19 New York City how many Gifted & Talent seats 20 from K-8? 21 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah, I can 22 pull up the number for you. 23 SENATOR CHU: Sure. And how many 24 percentage or like how many kids who take the 248 1 test or would like to join the Gifted & 2 Talented program. And how many seats we're 3 offering, how many percentage -- 4 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I can get 5 the specific numbers for you. We certainly 6 did an increase. And I think the biggest 7 part of that is, you know, prior to our 8 coming in, the prior administration had 9 talked about doing away with Gifted & 10 Talented. 11 But we -- and I didn't come in with a 12 position on it one way or the other. We 13 listened to what the community said to us. 14 From District 20 to District 29, folks said 15 to us: Don't get rid of it. If anything, we 16 need you to expand it. 17 And if you want to ensure a level of 18 equity, you don't do equity by just saying 19 there's not going to be any Gifted & Talented 20 for anybody. But ensure that you -- so we've 21 put Gifted & Talented programs now in every 22 district in the city, and we're going to 23 watch it, we're going to monitor it, we're 24 going to see how they're doing. And where 249 1 there's a greater demand for it, we will do 2 that. 3 We have one district which really 4 pushed back and said they philosophically 5 don't believe in Gifted & Talented and would 6 prefer not to have it. And we're going to 7 leave it to that district, but what we've 8 said to them was, Let the parents vote with 9 their feet. If the parents tell us they want 10 it by signing up, we'll make it available. 11 If they do not, we'll take those resources 12 and we'll give it to another district that's 13 looking for it. 14 So again, I'm not an ideologue on the 15 issue. If we want to get more parents and 16 families to come back to our schools, we have 17 to meet them where they are. So it's not 18 simply about what do I believe, it's what do 19 the parents believe and what do they want? 20 And I'm working really hard to listen, 21 authentically listen and try to respond. And 22 every district is not the same. 23 SENATOR CHU: I agree. 24 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Right? 250 1 This is New York City. The whole world lives 2 here, and they have very different opinions 3 on lots of issues. 4 And so I'm trying to do my best to be 5 as responsive by listening. 6 SENATOR CHU: I really appreciate you 7 opening up the channel and for parent 8 engagement, parent involvement, that's really 9 important. And is there any school district 10 in New York City right now with parents who 11 have advocated to have a Gifted & Talented 12 program and they don't have anyone in their 13 school district? Do you have that data? 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Parents who 15 have advocated to have -- 16 SENATOR CHU: They would like to have 17 a Gifted & Talented program in their school 18 district but they don't have it. 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: No, no, 20 because we -- we put it in every district. 21 So every district has the Gifted & Talented 22 program. 23 SENATOR CHU: At least one now. 24 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah, at 251 1 least one now. 2 Yeah, the question for us going 3 forward is going to be who gets more Gifted & 4 Talented programs because that's the demand 5 from that community, versus less because 6 there's less of a demand for it. So we're 7 just trying to meet the demand. 8 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 9 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you. 10 SENATOR CHU: That's all. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we go to 12 Alicia Hyndman. 13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Can I have the 14 remaining minutes from the Senator? 15 (Laughter.) 16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you, 17 Chair. 18 Thank you, Chancellor Banks. It's 19 good to see you and your team. 20 I've witnessed a dramatic change in 21 leadership in District 29 with Superintendent 22 Bonds and Superintendent Van-Ess. And I 23 really believe leadership does make a 24 difference, because the principals have been 252 1 more accountable and communication with 2 parents has been better, because I've 3 received less calls in my office. So thank 4 you. 5 (Laughter.) 6 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's the 7 metric for success, right? 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Right, it is. 9 Just a couple of quick questions. Is 10 there any mechanism that exists within the 11 DOE to track the dollars that come back to 12 the district regarding the charter school 13 students who leave a charter school and come 14 back to the traditional public schools? Has 15 there been any way to track those dollars, a 16 mechanism to track those dollars? 17 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: One of the 18 things I know we've heard quite often is the 19 notion that the charters keep the kids up 20 until a certain -- 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: October 31st. 22 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: -- they get 23 the dollars, and then they get rid of them, 24 and they go to the traditional public 253 1 schools. 2 I think that's a little bit of an 3 urban myth. And Emma can speak to you a 4 little bit about that. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I've been 6 asking colleagues about that, so that's -- 7 across the state, so it's just -- it's 8 becoming a concern. Which is why I asked if 9 there's an actual mechanism. 10 DOE COO VADEHRA: Can you hear me? 11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Mm-hmm. 12 DOE COO VADEHRA: Yes, thank you so 13 much for the question, and appreciate it. 14 It's definitely something we hear a lot. 15 So the way charters are funded is 16 they're funded bimonthly based on how many 17 students they have. So if their student 18 enrollment goes down, their budget does go 19 down that they are receiving from us. And so 20 that tracks them over the course of the year. 21 We don't track each of those dollars 22 dollar-for-dollar if a student comes back. 23 But the way they're paid means if they lose a 24 student they're no longer getting funded for 254 1 that student on a bimonthly basis. 2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay, thank 3 you. 4 In the 20 million that you mentioned 5 that it has cost our public schools with the 6 influx of migrant students, does that include 7 extra professionals -- teachers, paras? Does 8 that include that number? You're nodding 9 your head yes? 10 DOE COO VADEHRA: Yes. 11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. 12 DOE COO VADEHRA: So, first of all, 13 thank you for that question -- 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, ladies, if 15 you both could speak louder when you answer, 16 because we're having a little trouble hearing 17 up here. 18 DOE COO VADEHRA: Hold on. Thank you 19 very much for the question. 20 So first of all I just want to clarify 21 the question. So you had asked how much 22 additional funding is going out to support 23 these students. The 20 million that Seritta 24 mentioned is additional funding we've just 255 1 given to a set of schools for services like 2 that. You got a particular influx of 3 students, we will give you some money on top 4 of your regular per-pupil funding just to do 5 things like hire dedicated staff or buy 6 specific curriculum or books for those 7 students. 8 In addition to that 20 million, to 9 your question, it's also true that each of 10 those students receives a per-pupil 11 allocation under our formula. Right? So the 12 20 million is just the money on top. But in 13 addition, those schools do get a per-student 14 amount. And we think that's -- as the 15 chancellor said, the numbers are hard to 16 calculate since we don't exactly know, but 17 it's roughly in the $80 million range. So 18 that's the 80 million on top of the 19 20 million. 20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay, thank 21 you. My time is up. I'll refer my other 22 questions to Mark and Katie. Thank you. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 256 1 Senator Tedisco. Ranker, five 2 minutes. 3 SENATOR TEDISCO: Thank you, 4 Chancellor, for being here today. 5 Got a question about -- there's 6 several different reasons why it's difficult 7 for children to learn sometimes. They 8 come -- you know, I was a special education 9 teacher. Kids had different challenges, they 10 came from different homes. 11 We're talking about making sure all 12 our kids in our schools get fed lunch and 13 breakfast. Think it's a great idea, an 14 important idea. You can't learn if you're 15 hungry. 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 17 right. 18 SENATOR TEDISCO: You can't learn if 19 you're being bullied either. I'm wondering, 20 in your schools how much of that is taking 21 place in terms of bullying, violence related 22 to that? What are the policies that are 23 being developed or utilized to deal with it? 24 And are parents involved at all in those 257 1 policies? 2 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: It's a 3 great question. 4 It is not my understanding that we 5 have a bullying problem. So what I mean by 6 that is when there -- there have long been 7 cases where, you know, kids -- kids can 8 sometimes be very cruel to one another, 9 right? And some of it is bullying and some 10 of it is horsing around and not being nice. 11 It looks different at different age levels as 12 well. 13 But what we have done, in refining our 14 governance structure and having these 15 superintendents in place in the way that they 16 do and the way that they convene their 17 principals on a regular basis, the hot-button 18 issues are always brought to my attention of 19 the things that we at my level really need to 20 zone in on because they're deeply 21 problematic. Bullying has not been one of 22 them. 23 I think our kids have come back after 24 this pandemic with many of them demonstrating 258 1 a level of trauma, and -- but even just being 2 back in the organization of school has been 3 very, very helpful to them. That's why 4 getting our schools open was so critically 5 important. The teachers who love and care 6 for them makes all the difference in the 7 world. 8 But the notion of kids bullying other 9 kids has not been something that for the last 10 year or so that I've heard much about at all. 11 And we've got protocols in place to deal with 12 that. At the school level, parents are in 13 fact notified if we have issues -- the 14 parents of the child that's doing the 15 bullying, a child who has been bullied -- and 16 if we feel that there's a -- we've got to 17 bring folks together for some level of 18 mediation around that, we do that. 19 But it's not something that's reared 20 its head as a significant problem for us. 21 I'm sure we have it here and there, but not 22 when it's an overarching problem. 23 SENATOR TEDISCO: I believe the law in 24 New York State defines that if a bullying 259 1 incident takes place, the administration has 2 to report it to the State Education 3 Department. Are there any statistics or data 4 on how many times this type of instance 5 happened? 6 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I'd have to 7 check on that. That's not -- we will check 8 on that and we can get that back to you. 9 SENATOR TEDISCO: Yeah, I'd be 10 interested to know, because what the law 11 doesn't say is you are mandated to also 12 report it to the parents, the family members, 13 whether it's the child that, as you said, 14 bullied or the child that is being bullied. 15 And I don't know if you were here 16 earlier when I asked a question about Jacobe 17 Taras, who was in my district. I have a bill 18 called Jacobe's Bill. 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Where is 20 your district? 21 SENATOR TEDISCO: 44th Senatorial 22 District. More Saratoga, Schenectady right 23 now. 24 But he was bullied very much. The 260 1 requirement was not that it had to be 2 notified to the parents. We ask them to do a 3 lot with our schools. He committed suicide. 4 And when you leave parents out of the 5 equation with something as important as that, 6 that seems to be disturbing to me. I passed 7 that bill a couple of years ago when we were 8 in the majority, and I asked the people in 9 the room, Raise your hand if you would not 10 want to know that your child was being 11 bullied or had a bullying activity in their 12 school. Nobody raised their hand. 13 But yet we can't get that bill passed 14 in the Senate or the Assembly or signed by a 15 governor. I don't really understand that. 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, I 17 support you in that, and I will tell you that 18 that would be completely unacceptable under 19 my leadership. 20 SENATOR TEDISCO: Because I know 21 schools can report it. 22 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah, 23 absolutely. 24 SENATOR TEDISCO: But unlike they're 261 1 required to report it to the State Education 2 Department, they are not required to report 3 it to the -- 4 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I can't 5 imagine any of our schools reporting an 6 incident of bullying to the state and nobody 7 ever called the parents and got the parents 8 involved. That would be completely 9 unacceptable. Whether that was written into 10 the law or not, the basic protocol of 11 leadership and how you work in a school, 12 engaging parents and families, absolutely, 13 they have to -- parents would have to be 14 involved in that entire process. 15 SENATOR TEDISCO: So you'd support a 16 piece of legislation that says that 17 requirement is not only to SED but to the 18 parents, both sides of the parents should be 19 notified. 20 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, 21 without knowing any more than that, it 22 certainly sounds good to me for sure. 23 SENATOR TEDISCO: Okay, appreciate it. 24 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Appreciate 262 1 you. 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 3 Assembly. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 5 Assemblywoman Jackson. 6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you. 7 Hello, Commissioner. Always great to 8 see you. 9 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Good to see 10 you. 11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you for 12 visiting your old school, Law, Government and 13 Justice, after a student was stabbed. And 14 I'm grateful to have you, your team -- Mark 15 is great. 16 I love that you talked about safety 17 today and the Pivot -- what was it, Pivot? 18 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Project 19 Pivot. 20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Project Pivot. 21 I would love to hear more data about that. 22 I did bring up safety with my schools. 23 My students are telling me that they don't 24 feel as safe when they're leaving -- arrival 263 1 and dismissal, because they may have one 2 school safety officer, and it's an older 3 person that really can't do much if something 4 really broke out. 5 And one of the things that I brought 6 to their attention, and I brought it to the 7 Mayor as well, is that maybe we should be 8 having trusted adults there for arrival and 9 dismissal instead of a police presence, 10 because that's what the students are saying 11 they would not feel safe with. 12 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 13 right. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: And so Project 15 Pivot sounds like that would be what would be 16 helpful for the arrival and dismissal piece, 17 and safety. 18 So I just would love to know that that 19 would be a part -- if it's not already 20 existing, that that would be a part of 21 Project Pivot. 22 But my questions are around other ways 23 to keep our students safe and what you think 24 this would cost. We've been talking about 264 1 having schools open 24 hours. We know 2 Community Schools work, we know CTEs work. 3 And they work because they're wraparound. So 4 if we had our schools open 24 hours where 5 students can fall in for whatever reasons 6 they need to, I would like to know, like, is 7 this something you all would be interested 8 in? Can we create a cost analysis to figure 9 this out? Like any thoughts on our schools 10 being open 24 hours? 11 And then what funding or programs are 12 needed to get more teachers of color to teach 13 students of color. We know that that helps 14 with graduation rates and that sort. So I'd 15 just love to talk about those two things. 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, 17 listen, first of all, Member Jackson, thank 18 you so much for raising this. This is the 19 issue that keeps me up at night. And it is 20 heartbreaking for me. These kids are not 21 numbers for me even when I don't know them. 22 Every time I hear about another child that is 23 shot or stabbed, it is -- it's -- it is 24 beyond sad for me and evokes a whole range of 265 1 emotions that I have. I'm a father of four 2 children, including my only daughter, who is 3 a teacher at my original school, the Bronx 4 School for Law, Government and Justice in 5 your district, my daughter Alleya. 6 And I go and I visit these schools and 7 I'm visiting these parents, and the school 8 communities, it is just -- it's 9 heart-wrenching what is happening. And we're 10 working really hard to try to get in front of 11 this and figure it out. The proliferation of 12 guns and the amount of guns and weapons -- we 13 have seen a significant uptick in weapons 14 brought into our schools -- is my time up? 15 Oh, gosh. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. Thank 18 you, Chancellor. 19 To the Senate. 20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 21 Yes, for the Senate we have Senator 22 Robert Jackson. 23 SENATOR JACKSON: Chancellor, to you 24 and your team -- and I'm going to go pretty 266 1 quick because all I have is three minutes and 2 I need 45. 3 (Laughter.) 4 SENATOR JACKSON: But -- so my 5 question is that there was a hearing at the 6 City Council that there would be a gap of 7 $700 million that your team testified to. 8 What is the DOE's plan to sustain the 9 important programs that are funded with that 10 money? Social workers you mentioned. I want 11 to know, how many social workers do you have 12 in the system? And how much did you give to 13 each district -- I mean, each school to hire 14 a social worker? And all the other programs, 15 the psychologists and nurses and 3K programs. 16 How are you dealing with that money? So 17 that's the number-one question that I have. 18 If you can answer that and as quickly 19 as you can so I can get to my other 20 questions. 21 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Okay, why 22 don't we start -- Dan, why don't you start. 23 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: Yes, 24 sir, Senator. 267 1 So I think you're referring to the 2 stimulus money -- 3 SENATOR JACKSON: Speak up a little 4 louder, sir. 5 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: Yes. 6 I think you're referring to the stimulus 7 money that is expiring? 8 SENATOR JACKSON: The money that 9 you're allocating for every social worker. 10 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: Yes, 11 the money that we're allocating for every 12 social worker, that is tax levy money and 13 stimulus money. We're obviously -- I don't 14 have the amount off the top of my head, but 15 there is a cliff coming that we're going to 16 have to work very hard with each of you to 17 make sure we preserve those services that are 18 funded by stimulus. We'll get you the 19 number. 20 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay, so you're 21 anticipating you have enough resources 22 outside of that stimulus money in order to 23 continue the social workers? Is that what 24 you're telling me? Yes? 268 1 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: We 2 don't have them identified now, Senator, no. 3 We would have to work on that. 4 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. Now, talk 5 about charter schools -- and in fact, if the 6 Governor had her way, a hundred more charter 7 schools would come to New York City. And 8 based on the laws previously passed by 9 Bloomberg and Governor Cuomo, charter schools 10 can expand not in the same area, anywhere in 11 the city, as a result of that charter. 12 So what will be the devastating effect 13 of 300 new charter schools in New York City? 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, it 15 will have financial implications on us and 16 our budget and our schools, that's for sure. 17 And, you know, other than that, you 18 know, the issue, as I said, it's a political 19 issue that you all have to take up. But will 20 it have an impact? Of course it will. 21 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. Also we 22 talked about cutoff funding. People say that 23 children are counseled out after 10/31. And 24 I would like for DOE and CSA and teachers' 269 1 unions in order to track every student that 2 comes into the system after the cutoff date 3 to see how many each year and how much is 4 that costing us as far as money, and how much 5 is continuing -- continuously staying with 6 the charter school. That's important to me 7 from an evaluation point of view. 8 So I request that CSA, UFT, and the 9 New York City Public Schools -- not the 10 Department of Education -- do those 11 statistics, please. 12 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Okay, we'll 13 take you up on that. 14 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 16 Assembly. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 18 Assemblyman De Los Santos. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: Good 20 afternoon, Chancellor Banks. Can you hear 21 me? 22 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I can hear 23 you. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: Good 270 1 afternoon, Chancellor Banks. Welcome to 2 Albany again. It's good to see you here. 3 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: I want to 5 echo the same concern that my colleague 6 Senator John Liu was alluding to as it 7 relates to class size. 8 You specifically indicated after Year 9 3 there will be some complication in terms of 10 the implementation of class size. In 11 essence, you also highlighted that we may 12 have to sacrifice some of the student 13 resources classes in order to create space 14 for class size. And to me, that's a great 15 concern. We should not be removing student 16 resources in order to bring another teacher. 17 I believe there's enough money in the budget, 18 as he clearly articulated, to not have to 19 remove any resources for students. 20 So can you tell me what will be the 21 associated cost to -- after Year 3 for class 22 size? 23 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: We're 24 looking at -- our projections are that in 271 1 order for us to fully comply with class size, 2 we're talking about another billion dollars 3 that it's going to take in Years 3 through 5. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: But we're 5 clear, that money's not an issue. 6 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: And that's 7 not counting -- that's not counting capital 8 expenses to the degree that we're going to 9 have to continue to build more schools and 10 add the requisite number of additional 11 classrooms. That's what we're looking at. 12 But we certainly welcome an 13 opportunity to sit and do some projections on 14 this to see, you know, what we can do to 15 reduce class size and ensure that we're not 16 losing anything else in our schools. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: That will 18 be great. I look forward to it. 19 In addition to that, in terms of 20 mental health, what is the associated cost to 21 fully implement mental health services in 22 every Community School? 23 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: You mean in 24 every single school or just the Community 272 1 Schools? 2 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: Across the 3 board. Yeah, universal mental health 4 services in every Community School. 5 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I don't 6 know that we have very specific numbers, but 7 maybe we can work something up on that for 8 you. 9 But the question becomes what does -- 10 first we have to define what "mental health 11 supports" means. It can mean a wide range of 12 things. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: Well, 14 specifically to have a social worker and a 15 psychologist -- no negotiation -- in every 16 Community School. That should be a must 17 across the board. And also parental 18 engagement, whether the PTA, the parent 19 coordinator, and a specialist, a 20 para-coordinator, that would specifically 21 work to increase parental engagement. 22 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, we 23 have parental coordinators in all of our 24 schools. 273 1 ASSEMBLYMAN DE LOS SANTOS: But we're 2 still suffering from lack of parental 3 engagement in our Community Schools. So 4 something needs to be done to ensure that 5 every parent in our school communities is 6 fully engaged. 7 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, 8 listen -- I'm never left with much time to 9 respond. And these are all good questions. 10 If I'm allowed time, I will be -- 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: There will be 12 opportunity to -- I see your staff taking 13 notes. There's a number of responses that 14 you need to send to the respective chairs of 15 the Assembly and Senate, and we will share 16 them with all the members. 17 So now we go to the Senate. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 19 I think I'm the last Senator on my 20 list. So good afternoon, Commissioner -- 21 Chancellor, sorry. We're used to 22 commissioners up here. 23 I appreciate the various conversations 24 we've been able to have and your coming to 274 1 visit the complex in my district, as you 2 referenced, which is a great set of six 3 schools in one building. So it can work; we 4 know that. 5 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Absolutely. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You answered a 7 question from one of my colleagues earlier 8 that we should ask the Mayor his opinion 9 about the charter school issue. But released 10 data shows that the city is projecting if we 11 change the cap formula and put the zombie 12 charters back in, it would cost the City of 13 New York about $1.3 billion a year. I assume 14 that's your budget. 15 What does that mean if you have to 16 take 1.3 billion out of your current budget 17 to pay for this increased number of charter 18 schools? 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: It has an 20 impact on our budget, for sure. And -- so I 21 don't want to, you know, shy away from that. 22 The expansion on that would -- you know, 23 creates some financial challenges, certainly, 24 for us. So that's my response. 275 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And I believe 2 your colleague answered before that you're 3 spending 200 million a year on rentals for 4 existing charters. And then there was a 5 question of how many were collocated. So how 6 many schools is that that you're spending 7 200 million on? 8 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: 9 Chair, I would have to get you that number, 10 it's not -- yeah, the collocation number is 11 about 146. And we'll figure out how many 12 schools it is that are getting the rental 13 assistance now. I don't have that right with 14 me, but we'll get that to you. 15 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: The rental 16 assistance total is 200 million. But what 17 number of schools actually is part of that 18 200 million, we can get -- 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I guess I'm 20 trying to understand -- if I'm right, if you 21 have additional charters that you have to pay 22 $1.3 billion from an operating perspective, 23 is it reasonable for me to assume that you 24 would also have additional building rental 276 1 costs that went with these additional 2 charters, and that's not included in that 3 first 1.2 to 1.3 billion? 4 DOE COO VADEHRA: It actually is 5 included. So that's the total for capital 6 costs -- 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So you're 8 including it in the capital costs that you 9 project. 10 DOE COO VADEHRA: And that's the cost 11 for the charter cap and the zombie charters. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Thank you. 13 So we had had a discussion recently, 14 Chancellor, about your obligations to do the 15 follow-up reviews of schools, mostly the 16 yeshiva schools in Brooklyn, although I'm not 17 sure if they're all exclusively in Brooklyn; 18 I don't want to say that. But the obligation 19 to do follow-up review of these schools and 20 get information back to the State SED and the 21 public. 22 But in the budget proposal of the 23 Mayor you're actually significantly reducing 24 the number of staff you have in that division 277 1 of the Department of Education. So I'm 2 curious what that is going to -- what will 3 that mean? So you have a division that's 4 specifically supposed to work with the 5 nonpublic schools and you're reducing, I 6 think, personnel in there by approximately 7 two staff people, who were supposedly the 8 pedagogical people, if I said that word 9 correctly. 10 So I'm just curious, how does that 11 jibe with your understanding that you 12 actually have to do more than you've been 13 doing but now you'll have fewer people to do 14 it? 15 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah, I 16 mean I think that may have been connected to 17 the PEG that we had to respond to, the most 18 recent PEG. 19 But the reality is that we're 20 following up on that work, we're finishing up 21 that work, we've got to report back to the 22 state, we will do that, will be in compliance 23 with what we've been requested to do. A huge 24 body of that work has already been done, and 278 1 we will take it to the finish line. We've 2 lost a couple of staffers in the process -- 3 never helps. But at the end of the day, we 4 have to still do what we have to do. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: There were quite 6 a few questions in the previous panel -- I'm 7 not sure if you were in the room at the time 8 or not -- about the shortage of teachers; you 9 know, large numbers retiring. I think also 10 shortage of principals. 11 What do you see the City of New York's 12 trajectory for -- in order to address the 13 fact that obviously not only do we need 14 teachers and principals, we need great 15 teachers and great principals. So are there 16 any new programs that you're starting or that 17 you have found to be successful that we 18 should look to expand and replicate? 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: We've not 20 lost a great number of teachers. Even as we 21 have teachers who are retiring, we're 22 bringing in new teachers. 23 We've long struggled with particular 24 areas, in shortage areas -- teachers in 279 1 special education, bilingual teachers, those 2 kinds of very specific shortage areas. 3 One of the things that we had started 4 a process -- we ran into some problems along 5 the way -- we had worked with some groups 6 around recruiting teachers, bilingual 7 teachers from the Dominican Republic. We're 8 going to continue that work, not only the DR 9 but Puerto Rico and other Spanish-speaking 10 countries where we can get teachers to 11 actually come here to fill some of these 12 shortage areas that we have. 13 Trying to think out of the box on this 14 in order to do that. But that's kind of 15 where we are. 16 FIRST DEP. CHANCELLOR WEISBERG: Thank 17 you, Chancellor. Chair, just very briefly. 18 You know about our Pathways program to 19 make sure all of our students are graduating 20 with a pathway to long-term economic 21 security. One of the pathways we have 22 planned is an education pathway. And we 23 think that's a very promising pool of talent, 24 our own students, that we're not fully 280 1 tapping into. 2 And the other point I would make that 3 I hope is the subject of further discussion 4 with this body and others is just the 5 expense, frankly, that it takes to become a 6 certified teacher. It's very expensive to 7 do. And we can probably work together with 8 our partners at SED and the commissioner and 9 you all to figure out how to create 10 lower-cost pathways that we think would open 11 up new pools of talent. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So there's been 13 almost a spate of stories within a few weeks 14 about artificial intelligence software and 15 what it will mean for education in the 16 country. And I'm not even pretending I 17 totally even understand what the issues are. 18 But either -- depending on how you read these 19 stories, either we're bringing to an end our 20 concept of how we educate our children and 21 we're facing an immediate revolution in what 22 happens, or -- and it's very, very bad. Or 23 if you talk to or read about the vendors 24 selling this, it's very, very good. Clearly 281 1 it is very good for them. They think they 2 have something to sell us. 3 These are huge issues, you know, how 4 we educate our children and perhaps 5 ourselves. So where is the City of New York 6 on this? 7 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Deep in 8 research on it right now. We don't have the 9 answer to all of these. These are emerging 10 technologies. And emerging technologies can 11 oftentimes be scary. You talk about 12 something like ChatGPT, an artificial 13 intelligence tool where you're an English 14 teacher and you give any particular 15 assignment, the students can just audibly go 16 into this platform and say, Write me a 17 five-page essay on this topic, and it will 18 write an essay better than the teacher or the 19 college professor could ever write. 20 It's -- we have entered into a whole 21 new world and a whole new space. At New York 22 City Public Schools Central we have placed 23 some holds on the use of this technology 24 within the schools. But we're not fooling 282 1 ourselves: Kids are accessing it outside of 2 school. They're accessing it at home. The 3 teachers are already using it. 4 And so we're all -- so I don't -- I 5 don't sit here today pretending to tell you 6 that we've figured it all out. We are 7 grappling with this, together with our 8 educators, to figure out what is the best 9 path forward. It could ultimately turn out 10 to be a great thing. We do not know just 11 yet. 12 If school exists for the purpose of 13 helping to ensure that there's a body of 14 knowledge that our students ultimately have, 15 we have to work to put certain guardrails in 16 place to make sure. Because if all you need 17 to do is pose the question and put it in your 18 phone and use that as your body of work, then 19 that is not -- that's not what we consider a 20 true education for the particular individual. 21 So "to be continued" is really the 22 answer. We are studying this as we speak and 23 trying to figure out how to get wrapped 24 around it. And the schools -- yeah, and then 283 1 you're right. I mean, while we have kind of 2 put this official hold, individual schools 3 can opt in. But we don't have a systemwide 4 answer on this just yet. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So they can opt 6 in to use this somehow as part of the 7 teaching curriculum? 8 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yes. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: But not opt in as 10 telling the kids, yeah, yeah, get the machine 11 to write your paper for you. We're not doing 12 that. 13 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: And -- 14 and -- and the vendors themselves are 15 reinventing this stuff every day, and they're 16 putting on some of their own guardrails so 17 that even when the work is produced, it will 18 demonstrate that it is a GPT-produced 19 document, that students could not forward it 20 as though this was their own work. And 21 they've done this within the last 60 days. 22 So it is still moving and growing and 23 developing, and we're all learning as we go. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I used to think I 284 1 would live long enough where we would all be 2 working for Google and Apple, but now I'm 3 wondering whether we will just be replaced -- 4 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Oh, 5 absolutely. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: -- and not even 7 be needed for any of this. 8 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I have said 9 I've lived long enough to see so much 10 technology just kind of come and go. I 11 remember I bought my first VCR, and those 12 machines no longer even exist. So ... 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Please. Anyway, 14 thank you. I've used up my time. Thank you, 15 Chancellor. 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next we go to 18 Assemblyman Colton, three minutes. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Good afternoon, 20 Chancellor. 21 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Good 22 afternoon. 23 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: I welcome you 24 coming here to Albany as the chancellor of 285 1 the New York City Public Schools. And I 2 think it does set a tenor and a tone which I 3 think I appreciate very greatly. 4 I also identify with and appreciate 5 your comments regarding Mark Treyger as part 6 of your team, because prior to being in the 7 City Council he was part of my Assembly staff 8 team for 10 years. 9 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Is that 10 right? 11 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: So I have one 12 question I wanted to ask. And basically I 13 was a New York City teacher for 11 years, and 14 during that time I taught an IGC class in 15 fifth grade. And I'm happy to hear that 16 these gifted programs are being extended to 17 all schools. I think that will be very 18 beneficial. It will help meet needs of 19 children no matter where they are, no matter 20 what, you know, where they come from, they 21 will all meet their needs. 22 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: To all 23 districts. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Yeah. Is there 286 1 any update in terms of the possibility of 2 expanding specialized high schools? Because 3 I know in my school, which is in District 13, 4 many students were reading in my -- 5 especially the IGC classes, years above grade 6 level. They passed the SAT. And in fact the 7 majority of students in Brooklyn Tech at that 8 time was basically minority students, 9 African-American and Hispanic students. 10 So is there any possibility of 11 expanding the specialized high schools? 12 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: We -- 13 that's something we have absolutely been 14 looking at. And again, to respond to 15 requests that we're hearing more from our 16 communities and our parents in our 17 communities. 18 And so it's all on the table for us: 19 additional schools, additional programs 20 within schools. You know, there are costs 21 that are associated with all of this. And so 22 we've always got to weigh the benefit of 23 doing that, which might prevent us from doing 24 something else. But it is all on the table 287 1 for us, and certainly appreciate you -- 2 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Yeah, I think 3 that's very good. And as I said, you know, 4 the dyslexia program initiative I think also 5 is an example of how we need to meet the 6 needs of all students. And your 7 administration has been moving in that 8 direction. So I certainly appreciate that 9 very much. 10 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Appreciate 11 you. Thank you. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Okay, thank you 13 very much. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 15 Carroll. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: Good afternoon, 17 Chancellor Banks. 18 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Good 19 afternoon. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: I don't know if 21 the folks here really realize how 22 revolutionary your approach to literacy 23 education is. But I wouldn't be doing my job 24 if I didn't ask you to be a little more 288 1 revolutionary. And what I would love to see 2 from what you've done is to finally put to 3 bed the disproven and the poor whole-language 4 curriculum that is still being used in too 5 many of our schools. 6 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yup. 7 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: We know that 8 three-cueing is bunk. We should say it out 9 loud. And we shouldn't allow any single 10 school in New York City to implement it. 11 Can you right now say that we're going 12 to ban three-cueing and whole language from 13 New York City Public Schools? 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 15 where we're going. That's where we're going. 16 I think that the whole-language approach has 17 done a disservice to many of our kids over 18 the last couple of decades at least. 19 So this whole notion of the science of 20 reading and what we're doing in this place 21 and space -- this is central to everything 22 that we're doing as an administration. And 23 the reality, Assemblyman, is that people are 24 waking up and recognizing this all across the 289 1 nation. We've been meeting -- I've met with 2 superintendents across this country who are 3 on the same page. 4 I do get some push-back from some 5 schools who have been using this as an 6 approach and feel like it works for them. So 7 I have not tried to simply have a 8 one-size-fits-all. But I will tell you, this 9 is our major focus area, this is our 10 priority, and we're going to continue to 11 drive this until we reach the point where 12 every single student in New York City has the 13 benefit of the right approach to the teaching 14 of reading and how they learn how to read. 15 Because if they do not, nothing else that we 16 do even matters. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: And you know 18 that structured, sequential literacy works 19 best for all students, not just students who 20 have phonological awareness issues or 21 dyslexia, but every single student. The 22 studies prove it. I know you know that. We 23 need to shout it from the mountaintops. We 24 need to make sure folks hear it, because we 290 1 are hurting all children when we use 2 whole-language. And you and your team will 3 lead the nation if you are able to root out 4 this cancer in our public schools. It has 5 destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives. If 6 you can't read, it destroys your life. You 7 can't be about equity or justice if you're 8 not about teaching children to read. I know, 9 Chancellor Banks, you and I agree on this. 10 We talk about this. 11 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 12 right. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN CARROLL: The final thing 14 I'm going to say, though, is that I hope that 15 you keep partnering with schools like the 16 Windward School, the Gateway School, the 17 Gaynor School, the Churchill School. These 18 schools for 50 years were in the wilderness 19 helping children who were pushed out of our 20 schools. Please make sure you keep them in 21 the fold. Please make sure you keep learning 22 from them. They are real, real guideposts 23 and bright lights. We need them, we need to 24 help them. 291 1 I thank you for the work you do. I 2 know how courageous it is. I know how 3 difficult it is. Thank you. 4 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you, 5 Assemblyman, I appreciate it. Amen. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 7 Senate? 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 9 Senator John Liu for a three-minute 10 second round. 11 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 12 I didn't get a chance to say this 13 before, Chancellor Banks, but thank you for 14 your embrace of the Asian-American community 15 and including our history in the curriculum 16 in New York Public Schools. Last year you 17 announced that there would be a pilot 18 program. A couple of weeks ago you announced 19 that the pilot program was successful and you 20 are going to implement it across all public 21 schools this coming September. 22 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 23 right. 24 SENATOR LIU: Awesome. 292 1 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Absolutely. 2 SENATOR LIU: I also really appreciate 3 Assemblymember Rodneyse Bichotte's questions 4 to you and your responses about the Diwali 5 holiday. It's a super-important holiday: 6 200,000 students and their families 7 celebrate it in the New York area. That's a 8 lot of people. 9 I just want to be clear that I heard 10 clearly that you're committed to making that 11 a school holiday if we pass Assemblymember 12 Rajkumar and Senator Joe Addabbo's bill to 13 take away the Brooklyn-Queens Day. 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Oh, 15 absolutely. I think the Mayor and I are 16 fully aligned on this. 17 And again, these are the decisions 18 that are driven by the Mayor. Okay? And I 19 just want to say that while I sit here as 20 chancellor. But when you have a system of 21 mayoral accountability, the Mayor and I are 22 aligned. And so the Mayor has made it a 23 clear priority to see this holiday happen. 24 But we think that the quickest pathway there 293 1 is if you can pass the legislation that would 2 allow for removal of Brooklyn-Queens Day, 3 Anniversary Day, that would open up that 4 opportunity. 5 The Mayor is behind it, and I'm behind 6 it. 7 SENATOR LIU: So if we pass that bill 8 then you will make Diwali a school holiday? 9 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Absolutely. 10 SENATOR LIU: This year. 11 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 12 right. 13 SENATOR LIU: All right. Are you 14 already up against the limit so that you 15 cannot do so unless we pass that bill? 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Absolutely. 17 SENATOR LIU: You're at that limit. 18 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: We're 19 already at that -- we're already at that. 20 We've got like I think maybe one day of 21 buffer that we have that if we don't -- if we 22 can't -- we don't want to be in a position -- 23 SENATOR LIU: Well, you just testified 24 that remote learning went so well that if you 294 1 needed an emergency day, that's your buffer. 2 So presumably, even if we don't pass the bill 3 this year -- which, you know, I'm a full 4 supporter of, and I'm a cosponsor of the 5 bill, and I'm going to push to get it passed. 6 But in case -- like, for example, 7 sometimes the Governor takes a long time to 8 sign these bills. You can still make this 9 coming fall the Diwali this coming fall a 10 holiday. 11 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well -- 12 SENATOR LIU: Because you have that 13 one-day buffer which you no longer need due 14 to remote learning. 15 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Yeah. You 16 know, and it -- it varies year to year as 17 well in terms of when that -- where that day 18 actually falls. So I'm not even sure, for 19 this coming fall -- 20 SENATOR LIU: This year, as you know, 21 some people were upset that the Asian Lunar 22 New Year was on a Sunday and therefore there 23 was no recognition of it in public schools. 24 But last year an important holiday, 295 1 Juneteenth -- which I fully support -- that 2 landed on a Sunday and so the following 3 Monday Juneteenth was recognized. 4 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Right. 5 SENATOR LIU: We've got to be 6 consistent here. And we've got to get Diwali 7 in there as a school holiday. 8 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Right. And 9 let's start with your legislation that's 10 going to get it passed. That will be the 11 biggest help, and we'll go from there. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 13 SENATOR LIU: Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 Assemblyman Pirozzolo. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: Hello, 18 Chancellor. 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Hello. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: How are you? 21 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Great. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: It's a 23 pleasure to be here with you today. 24 I want to talk about two topics, which 296 1 are accountability and participation. And I 2 want to start with accountability since we're 3 all talking about charter schools. 4 I understand the difficulty you might 5 have with your budget. But just as you're 6 saying you have the difficulty integrating 7 technology into the school system, and the 8 school system is always overcome no matter 9 what the budget was or whatever the system 10 is, that working with or alongside charter 11 schools is something that is certainly, I 12 would imagine, within your ability to do. 13 Especially considering charter schools 14 seem to save lives of children that fall 15 through the cracks of the public education 16 school system, and they are public school 17 students. 18 So I'd also like to remind this 19 Legislature that it really is our job to make 20 sure that students are educated; whether it's 21 a public school charter student or a public 22 school student, it really doesn't make a 23 difference. Every student who is educated 24 and has the knowledge to go to high school, 297 1 college and beyond and become a functioning, 2 participating member of society is not only 3 good for New York, it's good for our country. 4 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: That's 5 right. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: So that brings 7 me to the accountability part. Usually when 8 I ask for accountability I'm kind of vilified 9 in saying that, you know, I'm going after 10 teachers. But our teachers in New York City 11 Public Schools are some of the best teachers 12 that there are in the country, and they work 13 hard every day. I'm not talking about the 14 accountability of teachers, I'm talking about 15 the accountability of the system. 16 And I'm asking you to work with us to 17 go to the State Education Department and say, 18 Listen, this really just does not work the 19 way that it is. We have so many schools 20 where 95 percent of our students can't read, 21 write or do math at grade level, and we fund 22 it year after year for the same programs. I 23 would like to consider different options, as 24 one of my colleagues mentioned -- maybe a 298 1 seven-day-a-week school. I'm not saying 2 every school. Or maybe a 12-month school 3 year with different breaks. I'm sure there 4 are teachers who would volunteer, if they 5 were not coerced into a situation, to try 6 this volunteer program to see what happens. 7 We have to do that. 8 And then that brings me to my third 9 point -- or my second, really, which is 10 participation. I am the former president of 11 CEC 31 for seven years, okay, and I got to 12 see with my own eyes a lot of the things that 13 happened in the New York City public 14 education system. And the CECs are supposed 15 to be about parental involvement. 16 But I'm talking about more when you 17 sit down and you negotiate with other 18 leaders -- you know, your teachers' unions 19 and things like that -- who is really there 20 representing the parents? Are there any 21 independent parent groups that can say, you 22 know what, what you guys are saying makes 23 sense but it really is not the best thing for 24 the children. 299 1 So I'm calling on you to help call -- 2 you know, keep the state accountable for 3 what's not happening in our schools and to 4 develop a system that we can bring 5 independent parents into the school system to 6 sit with you, as a representative of the 7 children, when it comes time to make 8 educational decisions. 9 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Listen, I 10 agree with pretty much everything that you 11 said. I think these innovative ideas, it 12 speaks to one of my pillars. When we talk 13 about a reimagined school experience, we've 14 got to do school very differently. 15 So I'm in agreement with you and I'm 16 willing to work with you on any of these 17 issues. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 20 Chair Iwen Chu for a three-minute 21 second-round follow-up. 22 SENATOR CHU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 23 Chancellor, I really want to give you 24 the credit. You really listen to the 300 1 parents, and the parent involvement, parent 2 engagement is really crucial. I really 3 appreciate that part. And you had mentioned 4 there's -- right now we have 146 charter 5 school collocations with our traditional 6 public schools. So obviously for those 7 parents who enroll to those charter schools, 8 distance is not the option -- is not a 9 question, right? It's not because the school 10 is too far -- it's not because of the 11 distance. It's definitely because their 12 collocation, one site, two schools running, 13 providing different services, different 14 programs, different resources. 15 So what do those 146 traditional 16 public schools -- they don't have compared to 17 those charter schools, so the students and 18 the parents made their decision to enroll 19 their student in the charter school? Like if 20 there's anything we can get their feedback on 21 the resources, the programs, the services we 22 don't have in our traditional public schools, 23 especially from K-8, maybe that would be 24 something we could improve our schools, 301 1 especially for those 146. That's a lot of 2 schools. 3 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Oh, 4 absolutely. I agree. And I think, you know, 5 one of the things that we can do from the 6 very beginning is what Assemblyman Carroll 7 has been talking about. If we have a very 8 different approach to how we are teaching our 9 kids to read and we can ensure that they can 10 read from the very beginning -- in a lot of 11 our traditional public schools we've got a 12 lot of kids who are just showing up grade to 13 grade, they're not on reading level. 14 And the charter schools, several -- 15 and there's a wide range of charter schools. 16 So when we say charter schools, there's no 17 one charter school that speaks for all the 18 charter schools. There's a wide range of 19 charters, and some of them are really 20 successful, some of them are less successful. 21 And similarly to traditional public 22 schools as well. We've got traditional 23 public schools that parents are lining up to 24 get into as well -- high-demand regular 302 1 public schools. 2 So I don't want to make -- I want to 3 push back a little bit on the idea of like 4 everybody's lining up just to go to charters 5 as though the traditional public schools, 6 there's no interest. Parents decide on very 7 specific schools that they're interested in. 8 And I'm sure all of you, within your own 9 districts, can point to very specific schools 10 that you know parents are very focused on. 11 And they guard those schools because they 12 love those schools. Some of them are 13 charters; many of them are not. 14 I want to make sure that we can share 15 across the -- that's one of the things I'm 16 really trying to figure out, how to get all 17 of us sharing: Charters, traditional, big 18 schools, small schools, what are the best 19 practices? I've hired someone to lead that 20 body of work. It's what we call Scale, 21 Sustain and Restore What Works. Taking the 22 best ideas and the best practices and making 23 sure that everybody's learning. It shouldn't 24 be a secret. If there's a charter school in 303 1 Queens that's doing a great job, why are they 2 doing a great job? What is it that they're 3 doing? We want to be able to take what 4 they're doing and ensure that every school 5 has access to that. 6 And schools have worked for far too 7 long in silos, within just the four walls of 8 their school. We want to change that. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 10 Assembly. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 12 Ardila. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN ARDILA: Thank you, Madam 14 Chair. 15 Chancellor, it's a pleasure to meet 16 you. Thank you for coming to Albany. I know 17 how far the trip is from New York City, so I 18 commend you for it. 19 I represent a district that is very 20 diverse. I represent Long Island City, 21 Sunnyside, Woodside, Maspeth, Ridgewood -- 22 diverse in culture. And in this budget, in 23 this proposal, there's specific allocation 24 for pre-K programs, predominantly UPK, 304 1 universal pre-K. With the influx of migrants 2 coming, with the diversity of our city and in 3 our borough, is there a commitment from the 4 DOE to expand pre-K dual language programs? 5 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: You know, 6 one of the things we've been trying to do is 7 we've been working really hard to try to 8 rightsize a lot of the stuff that we're 9 doing, particularly in that 3-K space. You 10 know, we've had about 40,000 seats that are 11 just empty seats that we've been paying for 12 through a lot of providers. 13 And we're working really hard to turn 14 that around and change that and make sure 15 that we're allocating the dollars where there 16 are real bodies and real seats. We see this 17 as a birth-to-five continuum, and we want to 18 make sure that the dollars are absolutely 19 aligned where the need and demand in a 20 particular community really is. So we're 21 very committed to that. 22 The challenge around 3-K, quite 23 frankly, is that 3-K was built on stimulus 24 funding. You know? And so as these dollars 305 1 are going away -- again, these are the hard 2 choices. You know, I try to avoid these kind 3 of rhetorical conversations. And I'm looking 4 at real dollars and saying, how do we 5 continue to fund certain programs that were 6 not built on, you know, taxpayer-levied 7 dollars but stimulus dollars? We have a lot 8 of programs that have been funded by the 9 stimulus dollars, which are going away -- and 10 trying to ensure that we are ready when that 11 happens. 12 So, you know, I talk to parents and 13 families, and they say parent engagement. 14 Oftentimes that means, you know, they want 15 what they want. Right? And as long as you 16 get me what I want, then I feel like I've 17 been engaged. But if they -- if we can't 18 support particular programs, it's -- you 19 know, when that -- there's no parent 20 engagement, we're not being engaged. 21 So my definition of engagement is that 22 I'm listening to everybody and I'm hearing 23 the best thinking, not only around what the 24 problems are but what they think potential 306 1 solutions in fact could be. And so we're 2 very committed to that space. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN ARDILA: I appreciate 4 that. Because we know -- and just for 5 context, we know that pre-K dual language 6 programs not only support children whose home 7 language is other than English, but also 8 exposes monolingual English speakers to 9 diverse cultures, customs, traditions, 10 languages. 11 So I'm committed to working with you 12 on that, expanding dual-language programs 13 across so that we can support our diverse 14 population. So I thank you for that. 15 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I 16 appreciate that very much. Look forward to 17 working with you. Multilingualism is a 18 superpower, and we got to work toward that. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN ARDILA: (In Spanish.} 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 21 So, Chancellor, I have a few 22 questions. I think you mentioned earlier 23 something about stimulus funds, but I was 24 wondering if we can get an update on the 307 1 DOE's use of the federal stimulus dollars and 2 how much you still have left to mitigate the 3 impact of the pandemic on New York City's 4 children, schoolchildren. 5 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Sure. 6 Yeah. So I'm going to have Emma give you a 7 little outline of that, how much money we 8 spent on our Summer Rising program. We had 9 the biggest Summer Rising program, summer 10 program, last year, and that was all stimulus 11 dollars -- as well as a whole host of other 12 initiatives. We'll give you a breakdown. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: She has a mic. 14 DOE COO VADEHRA: I have a mic. 15 Yes, thank you very much. 16 So as you noted and somebody mentioned 17 the $700 million before as well. We do have 18 a series of programs that are built on 19 stimulus dollars. The largest investment 20 currently is 3-K, where we're spending -- 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Can -- can 22 you -- 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: This side of the 24 room for some reason -- 308 1 DOE COO VADEHRA: I'm sorry. How's 2 this? I apologize. 3 The largest investment currently is 4 our 3-K program, and we're spending 5 $450 million of stimulus dollars on our 6 3-K program this year and next. 7 Some of the other really substantial 8 programs are our Community Schools program. 9 Summer Rising, as the chancellor said, we had 10 the largest summer program last year in the 11 history of the city, and are eager to 12 continue having a large summer program in the 13 city. 14 We're spending money on special 15 education recovery services, which have 16 already been discussed. We're spending money 17 on arts funding to our schools in a couple of 18 different ways. And so there's a series of 19 other things, and happy to -- yeah, there's 20 Project Pivot. But a lot of the things we've 21 talked through today are using stimulus 22 dollars. 23 In terms of big picture, last year we 24 spent about $3 billion in stimulus funds on 309 1 our schools, last school year. That money is 2 obviously petering down. This year we're 3 spending closer to $2 billion in stimulus 4 funds on our schools across all the different 5 places. And next year that actually goes 6 down to a billion dollars in the last year 7 that we have them. 8 So that's -- when we talk about sort 9 of the different fiscal constraints we're 10 facing, that decreasing amount of money that 11 will then go away entirely after that is one 12 of them. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Chancellor, I 14 wonder if you could comment on the Governor's 15 proposal that New York City DOE spend 16 35 million of Foundation Aid on tutoring. Is 17 that something you support? And what are 18 your thoughts? 19 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: You know, 20 the tutoring dollars -- first of all, I mean, 21 when you have the right programming on that 22 tutoring, it can be very effective. 23 We prefer a little bit more flexible 24 spending in terms of what we can do, as 310 1 opposed to kind of these mandated pieces. 2 Because there are a number of other programs 3 that are also working well, we think, in our 4 schools that are not necessarily tutoring, 5 and some of them are mentoring programs which 6 are helping kids with their mental health and 7 career readiness issues as well. So when 8 it's so fine-tuned to simply be purely 9 tutoring, it is -- it's a little limiting for 10 us. 11 But certainly additional funds around 12 tutoring is something that could be impactful 13 for kids. We're doing that. We've got -- in 14 fact, right now we just launched what we call 15 an academic sprint between now and the end of 16 the school year, where we've lined up a whole 17 host of vendors, many of them who are 18 tutoring vendors who are working with 19 hundreds of schools, getting ready to really 20 support -- and a lot of it we're doing is 21 virtually -- really trying to give that extra 22 support that our kids need. 23 So we get asked about learning loss 24 and how do we catch kids up. It's just 311 1 another effort to lean into that space. 2 Groups like the Khan Academy and others, 3 we're engaged with in a process of tutoring 4 and academic acceleration. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And switching, 6 I know there was some discussion about 7 teacher shortages. Do we currently -- is 8 there currently an assistant principal in 9 every school in New York City? 10 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: No, not an 11 assistant principal, not in every school. 12 First of all, it -- the ability to 13 have an assistant principal, to be able to 14 fund that, is left to the school leader, the 15 principal. I try not to, at the central 16 level, dictate for all 1800 schools that 17 everybody must do this. We say that they 18 know best at the school level around how to 19 engage with their parents and their families 20 and their school communities. I don't want 21 to say to them, I'm mandating that you hire 22 an assistant principal when you may want to 23 use those dollars to hire another music 24 teacher, another math teacher. 312 1 So those decisions are left more 2 locally, but they're generally determined by 3 the number of students. If you're a 4 principal of a school with 450 students, 5 you're making different decisions than a 6 principal who has 2,000 students, and so -- 7 but those decisions are left to the school 8 leaders. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And you 10 mentioned local. Just -- I want to just 11 mention something about the local issue, that 12 unfortunately the concerns that myself and 13 Senator Persaud raised about collocating an 14 elementary school in Sheepshead Bay High 15 School were not listened to. Though I'm 16 happy, I guess, that the communities of -- in 17 Queens and Bronx were able to prevent schools 18 from coming into those communities. 19 We had raised the issue of the -- some 20 of the problems of having high school 21 students and elementary school students right 22 across from housing, NYCHA developments of 23 5,000 residents, where there's been a lot, 24 unfortunately, of criminal incidents. 313 1 And I know that the PEP approved it 2 starting this fall. I would hope that 3 there'd be strong monitoring, and if in fact 4 our concerns prove to be true, that they be 5 addressed and that the school not be allowed 6 to continue in that location. 7 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Absolutely. 8 Absolutely. Thank you. 9 And I would say not -- I wouldn't 10 characterize it that we weren't listening. I 11 think sometimes we will disagree. I've got 12 to look at some of these numbers. But I will 13 tell you, I've not found one proposed 14 collocation yet that everybody lined up and 15 said this would be wonderful, we want it. No 16 matter who it is. The proposed locations are 17 always thorny issues, always. 18 And we've got to push, because again, 19 we've got a mandate from the state. If we do 20 not put that school in that collocated area, 21 we have to pay even more money to find them 22 private space. And those dollars come from 23 somewhere. And they will affect oftentimes 24 the same kids that we were going to 314 1 collocate; all of a sudden they don't get as 2 many dollars as they're supposed to get 3 because we had to spend more money to put 4 that other school someplace else. 5 That's why we work really hard to get 6 them into the places that we're already 7 paying the rent, in the schools that are our 8 schools. So that's -- it's always a 9 challenge. But never because we don't 10 listen. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I didn't mean 12 that you didn't listen. I guess you didn't 13 agree with what we said. And some of the 14 issue has been -- there's a junior high, I 15 guess now we call them intermediate schools, 16 right across the street, and we had to, years 17 back, readjust the dismissal time of the 18 intermediate school because of the problems 19 that came out of Sheepshead Bay High School. 20 So I see them personally in my 21 district offices just a few blocks away. 22 We've had incidents -- there's a girls 23 yeshiva a couple of blocks away where the 24 girls have to be walked with a teacher to the 315 1 bus stop. Because even though there is a bus 2 provided, MTA does provide a bus at the high 3 school, a lot of the students still wander 4 off to take a bus at a different school. 5 So I just -- you know, I wanted to say 6 that I appreciate that we -- 7 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Please keep 8 us abreast. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: -- continue to 10 monitor the situation. 11 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Please, 12 yes. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 14 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: The Senate is 16 finished. 17 We have Assemblyman Benedetto for 18 three minutes. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: 20 Mr. Chancellor. Hopefully, hopefully it 21 works. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chancellor. 22 Just one quick question. 23 You know, maybe you can help me with 24 my problem that I have. I have an awful lot 316 1 of curriculum bills that come my way. And 2 quite often I have to tell the person who has 3 given me this bill, Well, we shouldn't have 4 to make up a curriculum for this bill to pass 5 because it's probably already there in the 6 syllabus somewhere. And it's more, it's more 7 to the point that you would go to your local 8 superintendent and tell the superintendent: 9 Hey, we got a problem here with teaching 10 finance for children, or teaching some aspect 11 of -- in history that they can just go to 12 their schools and say, let's stress the 13 teaching of writing, literacy and whatnot. 14 Am I correct in telling them that? Is this 15 usually there in the curriculum, most things? 16 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Well, I 17 think you are absolutely correct. And I know 18 you're a former educator and you come from 19 this space. 20 And I would say that we -- there are 21 certain mandates that schools have to do 22 within their scheduling. But schools also 23 have a great deal of flexibility in how they 24 teach and what they really want to emphasize. 317 1 And so I think your local superintendent is a 2 great place to start, to share those 3 concerns. 4 And -- but as we hear it more 5 systemwide, it helps us to understand what 6 should we then be implementing deeper for all 7 schools across an entire system. But the 8 best place to start is absolutely the 9 superintendents. They have a great deal of 10 influence in supporting their schools in the 11 level of curriculum and particular curricular 12 choices that are made. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: So 14 Mr. Chancellor, please, just let your 15 superintendents know that they may be getting 16 a call from me asking them to do us a favor 17 and sit down with this particular 18 Assemblyperson, and maybe they can stress 19 what they wanted to do so we don't have to 20 pass a curriculum bill. 21 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: I love it. 22 Thank you. And I tell all of our 23 superintendents I expect for there to be a 24 relationship with all of you as elected 318 1 officials. You should know all of your 2 superintendents, and they should know you. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Well answered, 4 thank you. Thank you, Chancellor. We are 5 finished, and just in time for school 6 dismissal, I see. 7 (Laughter.) 8 NYC DOE CHANCELLOR BANKS: Thank you 9 so much. It's been a pleasure to be here. 10 And we will continue to work with all of you. 11 We'll follow up on any questions that were 12 not responded to with the proper data. And 13 we'll see you, I'll see you out in the field. 14 Thank you, everybody. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Great. Thank 16 you so much, Chancellor. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: As the 19 chancellor and his team leave, if there are 20 Assemblymembers wanting to speak with them, 21 if you can do that out in the hall. 22 We are now ready to start the public 23 portion of our hearing. If you're following 24 along, you can see that it is divided into 319 1 panels. Each member of the panel will have 2 three minutes to make a presentation. When 3 the panel is finished, if there are questions 4 from legislators, those legislators will have 5 three minutes to ask a question of the panel. 6 So if you can take -- 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Move on out. Or 8 move on to the table, one or the other. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: If you can take 10 the conversations outside, that would be much 11 appreciated. 12 So our first panel is made up of the 13 United Federation of Teachers, New York State 14 United Teachers, Council of School 15 Supervisors and Administrators, and the 16 School Administrators Association of New York 17 State. So if you can go perhaps in that 18 order, starting with the UFT. 19 MR. PALLOTTA: We'll start with NYSUT. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay. 21 MR. PALLOTTA: Thank you. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, Andrew. 23 MR. PALLOTTA: Good afternoon, 24 everyone. And I congratulate you on your 320 1 staying power. It's good to be among friends 2 of public education. 3 I'm Andy Pallotta, president of NYSUT, 4 and I'm joined today Karen Alford, the vice 5 president of elementary schools for UFT. 6 In the interests of time, I will just 7 give a couple of highlights of my testimony. 8 I'm sure you'll appreciate that. I want to 9 focus on two main areas. One is the 10 Foundation Aid, and the second being the 11 charter schools. I will briefly touch on a 12 couple of other areas if that's possible 13 within these three minutes. 14 And I just want to say good things 15 take a long time, and Foundation Aid coming 16 through this year, this is a fabulous thing 17 for our students throughout the state. We 18 want to go on record saying we fully support 19 the Governor's proposal for Foundation Aid, 20 and that this will make a real difference 21 around the entire state. 22 I'm a little less cheery about the 23 charter school proposal that's been put 24 forward by the Governor. This afternoon we 321 1 have some information to present on charters 2 from a Hart Research poll that was done, and 3 we strongly oppose any expansion of the 4 charter schools. Despite our efforts and 5 many of yours, the New York voters have also 6 spoken on this, because they have come out 7 with this polling that they have saying that 8 they do not support expansion of the charter 9 schools. 10 In New York State there are 21 school 11 districts with more than 5 percent of the 12 total enrollment in charters. In the last 13 five years, these 21 districts have seen 14 their payments increase by 1.2 billion. So 15 we heard before about the incredible amount 16 of money leaving the traditional public 17 schools and going to the charter schools. 18 And this is a fact that is incredible for us 19 to even present here, that 60 percent of the 20 Foundation formula increases that you 21 provided were sucked up by the increase in 22 charter school payments. 23 Is that my bell already? No? Good. 24 Good. 322 1 So New York City is not alone. This 2 is truly a statewide problem, the main thing 3 being that they're unaccountable and not 4 transparent, as public schools are. 5 So we have done the research, we have 6 read the reports that they have given us, and 7 it is true that New Yorkers really want us to 8 concentrate on expanding literacy and 9 reading -- we heard much about that today -- 10 vocational programs, addressing the teacher 11 shortage, improving safety in the schools, 12 and reducing class size. 13 So Community Schools, crucially 14 important, and we support these throughout 15 the state. Also we attended the rally on a 16 universal meals program, and we strongly 17 support this also. We know that 726,000 18 children in this state used to have access to 19 these meals that are no longer getting them, 20 and we support Teacher Centers. 21 Thank you. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 23 Just as a reminder, the first bell is 24 when the yellow light goes on that -- that's 323 1 just to warn you that it's one minute, and 2 keep it rolling. 3 MR. PALLOTTA: Thank you. 4 MS. ALFORD: Good afternoon, everyone. 5 I'm Karen Alford, the UFT's vice president 6 for the elementary schools, as well as the 7 executive director of our United Community 8 Schools. 9 It's a pleasure to be here today to 10 present to you on behalf of our students, 11 parents and teachers in New York City. Thank 12 you all for championing the class size 13 legislation and getting it passed and signed 14 into law last year. 15 We applaud Governor Hochul for fully 16 funding the Foundation Aid. And it's 17 noteworthy to add that this has been a 18 marathon and clearly not a sprint, and thanks 19 to you all for making this funding a reality. 20 Fully funding the Foundation Aid and 21 lowering class size legislation are clearly 22 real investments that impact students 23 directly. We have seen, over the course of 24 the last few years, interrupted learning, and 324 1 these dollars will certainly help us as 2 educators to differentiate instruction, to, 3 make sure that students are getting ELA, math 4 and other content areas, and certainly 5 addressing social-emotional learning, 6 addressing the trauma and the safety issues 7 that are real concerns for so many of our 8 students as well as our parents. 9 While we applaud Governor Hochul's 10 budget, we are deeply concerned about the 11 charter proposals. And until there's equity 12 and transparency, zombie charters should not 13 be reissued. The geographic cap should not 14 be lifted. 15 We know, in our district traditional 16 public schools, that we are dealing with high 17 indices of poverty. There are certainly more 18 vulnerable populations in terms of special 19 education students, ELLs, immigrant students, 20 as well as students in temporary housing, 21 which we also know to be homeless and doubled 22 up. 23 Until there's equity and transparency, 24 we're asking that the loophole be closed and 325 1 that one charter doesn't result in three 2 schools -- an elementary, middle as well as a 3 high school. And we are also asking that the 4 Board of Regents be the sole authorizer. 5 We know that there's another way to 6 have a path forward. We know that there's 7 another way to transform schools, and that 8 way is through Community Schools. At 9 United Community Schools we service over 10 20,000 students, and we know that there's a 11 six-to-one return. For every $100,000 that 12 we invest in a Community School coordinator, 13 we see $600,000 worth of services that go 14 back to students and families. 15 We also know that our UFT Teacher 16 Centers are a path forward, making sure that 17 teachers have quality professional 18 development. And we know that our behavioral 19 interventions matter, and deescalation 20 matters. And so our Positive Learning 21 Collaborative is another way to think about a 22 path forward. 23 So as opposed to supplanting dollars, 24 let's ensure that dollars are making it 326 1 directly into our classrooms. Thank you. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 4 Senator -- 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: No, no, no, 6 we're not finished yet. We still have 7 Henry -- 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, I'm sorry. 9 I'm so sorry. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Henry, yes. 11 MR. RUBIO: Good afternoon, 12 Assemblymember Weinstein, Assemblymember 13 Benedetto, Senator Mayer, Senator Krueger, 14 Senator Liu and your honorable colleagues, it 15 is my pleasure and honor to be with you 16 today, and we're grateful for the opportunity 17 and the support that you've given the 18 New York City school system. 19 My name is Henry Rubio, and I am the 20 new president of the Council of 21 School Supervisors and Administrators, as of 22 January 1st. 23 I thought I had five, but I only have 24 three, so I'm going to do like every good 327 1 teacher and pivot. 2 (Laughter.) 3 MR. RUBIO: First of all, we represent 4 over 6,000 active New York City school 5 leaders, around 11,000 retirees. 6 I am also the president of NYSFSA, the 7 New York State Federation of School 8 Administrators, and NYSFSA represents 9 New York City, Yonkers and Buffalo. We 10 recently partnered with SAANYS to both 11 elevate and unite the voice of school 12 administrators throughout our entire state, 13 and we've each submitted separate testimony 14 today and proudly stand with SAANYS on the 15 issues they raise before the Assembly and 16 Senate today. 17 First, thank you, thank you, thank you 18 from the bottom of our hearts for supporting 19 the Governor's proposal to fully fund 20 Foundation Aid. 21 First, these investments must reach 22 students in their classrooms. We are 23 respectfully requesting that the Legislature 24 direct and encourage the increase of 328 1 Foundation Aid for New York City schools to 2 flow as commensurately as possible into the 3 Fair Student Funding formula, to ensure that 4 those dollars and those investments in 5 education are reaching every student where 6 they learn. 7 This is especially important given the 8 recent legislation mandating class size in 9 New York City, and to ensure the sound, basic 10 education that Senator Liu raised this 11 morning and that we support. 12 Secondly, I heard some great 13 conversation this morning about learning loss 14 and pedagogical loss and -- something that 15 Senator Oberacker and others have been 16 talking about today that we as school leaders 17 support and applaud. Our school leaders are 18 committed to hiring the best teachers for our 19 students, and that has become increasingly 20 more difficult, both recruiting and 21 maintaining our teachers. 22 Equally important is a leadership 23 loss. We are experiencing a 300 percent 24 increase in the number of principals that are 329 1 either retiring or resigning out of the 2 school system, and we're looking for your 3 support to strengthen our assistant principal 4 to principal pipeline to fill those vacancies 5 in our school system and to better support 6 our teachers, our staff and our students. 7 Lastly, we're looking for your 8 support: Out of approximately 1700 schools 9 in New York City, we have approximately 10 100 that do not have an assistant principal. 11 And I concur with something the commissioner 12 said this morning. We love the idea of 13 having multiple teachers in a classroom, but 14 we also need -- and we don't want them to be 15 Lone Rangers. We can't have our principals 16 be Lone Rangers either. They need a copilot 17 with them, running their schools. We don't 18 like planes with one pilot, and so we need 19 two leaders in that school to lead. 20 Thank you, and we look forward to 21 working with you. 22 MS. GALLAGHER: Thank you for the 23 opportunity to present testimony today. It 24 is always a privilege to do so. 330 1 My name is Cindy Gallagher, and I'm 2 the director of the School Administrators 3 Association of New York State. And we are 4 equally as excited about the merger that 5 Mr. Rubio had just discussed. Together we 6 represent 14,000 building administrators 7 across the state, in all of the Big 5 cities 8 and in the majority of school districts 9 across the state. 10 As we've talked to our members 11 throughout this school year, one of their 12 overarching concerns has been about the 13 erosion of systems that they need to do their 14 work. As we examine the Governor's proposed 15 budget, what we see is the beginning to shore 16 up some of those important systems. 17 First, the funding of Foundation Aid, 18 a solid foundation for our schools. And we 19 certainly appreciate and we know the long 20 haul that has been the complete phase-in of 21 the Foundation Aid formula. This is a 22 heralded public policy success, and we thank 23 you for your commitment to this long haul. 24 Secondly, the infusion of mental 331 1 health and school safety initiatives 2 throughout the budget. It is exactly what is 3 needed, the infusion of mental health 4 programs and services into the schools: 5 10 million for school-based health clinics 6 in-school; 10 million directly to grants for 7 the identified programs that they know they 8 need. Another pot of money out of the RECOV 9 that is the reappropriation, as well as your 10 extended school days. 11 As far as school safety, those 12 extended school days are a bridge to the 13 community, providing a safe place for our 14 students and the supports they need, perhaps 15 with the high-impact tutoring. 16 Then also you've heard all through 17 today the importance of the career and 18 technical education programs. Our 19 administrators have used those strategically, 20 especially in this post-pandemic situation. 21 They've used them to increase the attendance 22 in schools that we know is challenging for 23 some of our school districts, and they've 24 used them also to make these programs more 332 1 relevant to students' lives -- being able to 2 have credits associated with employment, and 3 working with the industries in their 4 localities. 5 We do have some concerns about the 6 budget. As Mr. Rubio talked about, there is 7 little funding to no funding in there for the 8 professional development of our building 9 administrators. Their jobs are so complex, 10 and they need that updated information and 11 current training to do the professional 12 judgment that they are called upon to do 13 every day. 14 You've heard the concerns about 15 charter schools. We also would like to see 16 funding in there for universal meals. 17 So we thank you today for this 18 commitment to hear all of our perspectives, 19 and we look forward to your questions or 20 statements. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 22 And we go to Assemblyman Benedetto, 23 but first I just want to acknowledge that 24 Assemblywoman Levenberg joined us. 333 1 The mic is yours. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Yes, the mic 3 is still -- I've got it. 4 Good afternoon. Many of you know, I'm 5 sure, I used to be a teacher. And so I have 6 the greatest respect for the people you guys 7 represent. Okay? I used to think I was a 8 good teacher until I actually looked around 9 at the other people I was with. And we have 10 some of the greatest teachers in our country 11 teaching our kids. All applause to you. 12 And let me say too, being in, you 13 know, several different schools, it generally 14 was -- and they were good schools, but they 15 were good schools because of the 16 administrators in these schools. They set 17 the tone, they guided the ship, and they did 18 a great job. Wonderful, all the respect in 19 the world. 20 A question, though. We have before 21 us, before my committee, before I guess both 22 committees, Senate and Assembly, a particular 23 bill called Solutions Not Suspensions. Okay? 24 Talking basically how we're going to be doing 334 1 with school discipline and do we just suspend 2 kids and use that as a way to control the 3 class. 4 The bill has many, many good points, 5 but it has a lot of moving points. I'm very 6 interested, by the people I respect as 7 educators, your opinion on this particular 8 bill. Yeah, who -- no one wants to take that 9 one, eh? Go ahead, please. Kathy? 10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: I guess the 11 one who sits at the end of the table, right, 12 is where that question ends. 13 So as you all know, as we've talked 14 with you throughout this year, certainly 15 student discipline has been a challenge for 16 many of our building administrators and 17 teachers as the students come back and 18 relearn routines. We've seen that in the 19 earliest grades. 20 And so we have posed the question and 21 we have seen the recommendations from the 22 School Safety Task Force, and we have been, 23 you know, involved in discussions on that 24 bill. And we do have some challenges with 335 1 it. Our administrators across the street 2 certainly want to rely on their professional 3 judgment when it comes to school discipline 4 and really would like that continued ability 5 to do so. So there are pieces of suspending 6 and prohibiting suspensions at certain grade 7 levels; we would like to, you know, continue 8 to work on some of those issues, knowing full 9 well that there are areas where the data 10 shows that suspensions have been used 11 disproportionately. So we are very sensitive 12 to the issue but also sensitive to the 13 concerns of our building administrators in 14 the schools every day. 15 MR. RUBIO: If I may add, I totally 16 concur with our colleagues at SAANYS and 17 Cindy. I think as parents and principals and 18 practitioners it's important to have a 19 balance between suspension and support. 20 Right? Senator Tedisco talked about bullying 21 and what have you. There have to be supports 22 there for children, but there also have to be 23 consequences. There's a lot of discretion 24 that's necessary for the principal. 336 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 2 Chair Shelley Mayer. 3 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you very much. 4 Good to see you all. 5 So this is a question really for 6 Ms. Alford and Mr. Pallotta about Community 7 Schools, which in the Governor's proposed 8 budget continue to be a set-aside out of 9 Foundation Aid. And I think you both support 10 significant additional funding for Community 11 Schools apart from Foundation Aid. 12 Can you just explain from your 13 perspective, representing teachers around the 14 state, the benefits of having expanded 15 Community Schools? And particularly the 16 after-school and wraparound services that 17 schools offer to parents and families as well 18 as children. 19 MS. ALFORD: We've seen Community 20 Schools to be a value-add wherever they are. 21 And it takes a whole-school approach. It 22 ensures that parents are also part of the 23 learning community, as well as supporting 24 educators in the school. 337 1 And we know that children struggle to 2 learn when there are challenges that walk in 3 the door with them. So when students are 4 hungry, when students have not had the right 5 physical support in terms of mental wellness, 6 when students are struggling academically, 7 Community Schools fill that void. We have 8 schools now where they have created community 9 closets for students and parents who just 10 don't have dollars and they have to decide 11 between buying food and buying clothing or 12 even washing clothing. Community Schools 13 have been there to fill that gap. 14 And so we have, in our United 15 Community Schools, we've actually given out 16 laundry cards to help families so that they 17 can have clean clothing so that students can 18 show up in the school. We have multiple food 19 pantries, because food insecurity is a real 20 issue in so many of our communities, and so 21 families can shop with dignity without having 22 to spend a dollar. 23 So it's those kinds of supports that 24 help to reduce some of the barriers so that 338 1 students may be present, fully present, and 2 able to learn and absorb what's happening in 3 the classroom. 4 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. 5 MR. PALLOTTA: And this is something 6 that is working throughout the state. So 7 we've seen what works, and we've copied it 8 around the state. In Rome, New York, they're 9 actually acting as a hub for eight other 10 districts that they can come in and they run 11 a food pantry and they have clothing that you 12 can get there. 13 So these are real needs in schools 14 across the state. So this is something we 15 fully support funding. 16 SENATOR MAYER: So just quickly, 17 Mr. Rubio, how many schools in New York City 18 do not have an assistant or a second 19 administrator? 20 MR. RUBIO: Thank you for the 21 question, Senator. 22 Approximately 100. 23 SENATOR MAYER: One hundred only have 24 a -- 339 1 MR. RUBIO: Only have a principal, 2 don't have a -- it's a huge safety concern 3 for us. It's not uncommon for schools to 4 experience an intruder, fire, smoke. And so 5 when you don't have a principal, it becomes 6 very difficult and -- 7 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. Thank you 8 very much. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 We go to Assemblyman Smith. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you. 12 And thank you for everything that your 13 members do to really educate the students of 14 the State of New York. 15 What I want to talk about a little bit 16 is these zombie charter schools that it looks 17 like might be brought to life, and I'm hoping 18 you could take some time explaining concerns 19 that myself and a number of members have. 20 Personally my concern is they're going to 21 resurrect these zombie schools to suck 22 millions of dollars out of our public 23 schools, that they don't have the same 24 accountability and they don't have to accept 340 1 every student. 2 Can you elaborate a little bit on 3 this? Am I missing something? 4 MR. PALLOTTA: You are missing 5 nothing. So this is a major problem. 6 And, you know, we were thrilled with 7 the $2.7 billion increase in Foundation Aid, 8 but then when you see the amount of money 9 that leaves those same public schools, if you 10 look at -- I have right here, not far from 11 the Capitol, Green Island, Menands, 12 Watervliet, all pay more in charter school 13 payments than they receive in Foundation Aid 14 increases. 15 So you're working hard to get this 16 increase, this funding into the schools, and 17 it's leaving right out the back door. 18 And back on to Assemblyman Benedetto's 19 issue on the Solutions Not Suspensions bill, 20 one of the things that worked so great when I 21 was in the classroom was social workers, 22 having the actual intervention in the school 23 buildings. While the students were in the 24 building, that they could have those services 341 1 available to them, that was incredible. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: If I could just -- 3 oh, go ahead, I'm sorry. 4 MS. ALFORD: We see that resurrecting 5 these zombie charter schools -- these were 6 schools where the charters were surrendered, 7 revoked or terminated for some reason, but 8 yet now there seems to be this willingness to 9 bring them back. 10 In addition to that, we see that 11 $153 million were diverted from schools due 12 to facilities charges. And so when you think 13 about bringing back upwards of a hundred or 14 so zombie schools, which in essence really 15 could be 300 if you get three bites at the 16 apple, and you think about all the facility 17 dollars that come with this, you see an 18 exorbitant price tag. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Okay. And, you 20 know, I know a concern that I have is that 21 they're not held to the same standards, so in 22 terms of accountability, you know, it's like 23 comparing apples to oranges. You know, we're 24 not able to look at that. 342 1 And there's no obligation to accept 2 every student. I know it was brought up by a 3 number of my colleagues a little bit earlier 4 today. That's a concern that I think I 5 share. It actually may serve to make public 6 schools look worse if you're cherry-picking 7 the students who are then attending these 8 private institutions. 9 Thank you for your time. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 11 To the Senate. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 13 Chair John Liu. 14 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 15 And thanks to everybody on this august 16 panel for your patience. I had questions for 17 all of you, but I've only got three minutes, 18 so I'll make it lightning round, practically. 19 First of all, Henry, congratulations 20 on your ascendancy to the presidency. You're 21 going to hit the ground running because 22 you've been working alongside your 23 predecessor for many years, and in fact you 24 have. So congratulations. 343 1 As I said to the chancellor earlier, I 2 have spoken with many principals -- in my 3 area more specifically, but also principals 4 throughout the city, and there is concern 5 about the class size mandate. But as I said 6 to the chancellor, this is not a situation 7 where he simply tells your members, Get it 8 done. This is something that the DOE and the 9 chancellor has to be fully engaged in and 10 working alongside your members to make sure 11 that it is enacted the right way. 12 MR. RUBIO: Thank you. 13 SENATOR LIU: President Pallotta. 14 Andy, I see in your testimony you talk about 15 how there's very little local control over 16 new charter schools -- like the State 17 University of New York gets involved, and 18 they just basically override. How is that? 19 MR. PALLOTTA: Well, that's one of the 20 ridiculous things on how charters are granted 21 in this state. We had a school in Suffolk 22 County, a charter school that they had 23 proposed -- there was intense, intense 24 pushback on having this school put into their 344 1 town. And the SUNY Charter Institute, 2 working for the charter industry, put it in 3 anyway. So even though the local community 4 did not want it, they went against the local 5 community and put it in place. 6 SENATOR LIU: I think at the time they 7 said that the local school board was too -- 8 too vulnerable to the evil teachers' union. 9 MR. PALLOTTA: Wow. 10 SENATOR LIU: Is that -- is that why 11 SUNY had to come in and override the local 12 decision? 13 MR. PALLOTTA: And dominate the 14 public, the taxpayers who actually pay the 15 taxes that make the schools run, right? 16 So that they did that, and even that 17 narrative, is just disgraceful. 18 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, and I concur. 19 Karen, Ms. Alford, great to see you. 20 MS. ALFORD: Great to see you. 21 SENATOR LIU: I have a question for 22 you that is a little bit tricky, and that is 23 that as I stated earlier to the chancellor -- 24 and some of my colleagues have already 345 1 expressed their opinion -- we really think 2 that Diwali needs to become a school holiday 3 in New York. It's -- the South Asian 4 community's the fastest-growing community in 5 New York City, we've got 200,000 kids in 6 New York City Public Schools, and the 7 proposal is to eliminate Anniversary Day, 8 also known as Brooklyn-Queens Day. 9 But my understanding is that that's a 10 day that's important to teachers also. So is 11 there any way to work around that or ... 12 MS. ALFORD: President Mulgrew 13 definitely wants Diwali to become a holiday. 14 And so we are willing to sit down and help 15 figure this out, because it is certainly 16 important to acknowledge the holiday. 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 18 SENATOR LIU: That's great to hear. 19 Thank you so much. 20 Thank you, Madam Chair. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 23 Colton. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Yes, thank you. 346 1 I have a question -- I was listening 2 to the testimony of the previous -- of the 3 chancellor, and I heard something about the 4 cost of charter schools to New York City is 5 right now about $3 billion. And if it's 6 expanded, I'm concerned about how that's 7 going to affect the Foundation Aid money 8 that's being given and how it's going to 9 affect small class size. Which, you know, is 10 now mandated and has to be done. 11 So I'm concerned what impact that 12 amount of money, additional money to that -- 13 because this would be additional charters -- 14 would impact the school system and the 15 victories we won with Foundation Aid. So I 16 ask that to anyone on the panel. I'm sure 17 NYSUT and the UFT would certainly be 18 interested in answering that. 19 MS. ALFORD: I definitely think it 20 certainly sounds like a contradiction there, 21 doesn't it? And so to be able to increase 22 charters, they need more space. And then 23 clearly that's in direct contrast to being 24 able to lower class size. 347 1 And so we certainly believe that class 2 sizes should be lowered. It's a state law at 3 this point, and it can already be done in 4 some schools. And so we definitely want 5 these smaller class sizes -- we see how 6 instruction has changed so drastically, 7 particularly since the pandemic has happened, 8 and we don't want to shortchange our 9 students. 10 MR. RUBIO: As educators we all 11 support reducing class size. I think we're 12 going to, like the chancellor said this 13 afternoon, encounter significant problems. 14 Especially giving up classrooms that 15 presumably might go to charters will be a 16 difficult problem. 17 And so we need to keep an eye on that 18 and our schools will need in some cases more 19 space -- I forgot who was mentioning it this 20 morning, of districts and schools that are 21 already overcrowded. And where are we going 22 to create those classrooms, how students 23 potentially could be displaced, right -- 24 they're zoned to a school but now there's no 348 1 longer any space there. And so we're 2 concerned about the space issue as well. 3 MS. GALLAGHER: And just very quickly, 4 although we're talking about New York City, I 5 would be remiss if I didn't say that our -- 6 Buffalo, Yonkers, Rochester and Syracuse all 7 have very similar opinions, our building 8 administrators, of the concerns, so ... 9 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: And would it be 10 fair to estimate, based upon the past 11 experience of charters, that most of the 12 charters will end up to be collocated in 13 existing buildings and therefore take up 14 space in those buildings? 15 MR. RUBIO: You heard the chancellor 16 say that they look for space in the current 17 existing DOE buildings, which would then put 18 pressure on our schools. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN COLTON: Okay, thank you. 20 MR. RUBIO: Thank you, sir. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 23 Senator Robert Jackson. 24 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. 349 1 Good afternoon, everyone. And Henry, 2 congratulations on your presidency. 3 So you may have heard me state earlier 4 that I'm requesting that the unions and the 5 administrators and the teachers come together 6 and document, have a form that basically when 7 any child comes back to the public school 8 system from the charter school -- because 9 that has an impact not only on the family 10 that's doing that but also from a financial 11 point of view. 12 I've heard it throughout -- and so I 13 just think we need to track that on a 14 continuous basis. And a form that you can 15 put together and then fill out and then you 16 submit that to CSA, UFT, NYSUT so that you 17 can add up what geographical areas are 18 children being counseled out of charter 19 schools. That's one thing. 20 And then number two, I asked the 21 chancellor, but I ask you the same question. 22 Knowing that if in fact the Governor gets her 23 way with respect to all of the charters now 24 coming to New York City -- and we're talking 350 1 about a hundred -- and knowing that a charter 2 basically, if you have an elementary school, 3 they can expand to an intermediate school or 4 to a high school -- not in the same 5 geographical area, another borough 6 altogether -- what kind of impact would that 7 have on the administrators, on the unions of 8 all of the teachers and what have you and so 9 forth? If you can just expound -- expand on 10 that. 11 MR. RUBIO: Again, it causes a huge 12 organizational problem for us. Just recent 13 charter proposals of opening an elementary 14 charter school in Queens, in a complete high 15 school, we thought was absurd. There are 16 safety issues and all that, organizationally. 17 Senator Jackson, I want to thank you 18 because you are consistently speaking to 19 educators in our school districts, you hear 20 from principals directly. I disagree with 21 what was stated earlier today that it's a 22 myth. It happens. Our schools are impacted. 23 For the first time, I heard today that 24 charters get their payments on a -- I think I 351 1 heard a biweekly or bimonthly basis. 2 But when those children come back to 3 the New York City school system, a principal 4 does not get the funding post-October 31st 5 until I believe they'll hold it to maybe 6 February. And in the meantime, they have to 7 provide those services to the kids who are 8 already in the school. And when they finally 9 get that funding, they're left with a very 10 small window to reorganize their funding to 11 efficiently and effectively support students. 12 And our teachers and our colleagues are doing 13 our very best to provide those services. 14 So it's a big organizational, 15 operational issue that gets in the way of 16 supporting and giving our students that 17 sound, basic education that they deserve and 18 that we're all here to provide. 19 MS. ALFORD: I think this also gets to 20 Assemblyman Colton's point as well that there 21 is -- there's clearly this lack of 22 transparency as well as the space. Two 23 people can't share the same exact space. 24 Right? Like spacing is a true issue here. 352 1 And then the dollars -- we too want to 2 know more about where these dollars go, 3 because we have the same belief as President 4 Rubio, that these dollars do not necessarily 5 come back to the district public schools in a 6 timely way. 7 And one other thing I'd like to point 8 out is -- 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No, I'm sorry, 10 I've got to cut you off. 11 MS. ALFORD: Okay. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Because we know 13 Robert Jackson really does want 45 minutes 14 with you, but we're not letting him have it. 15 (Laughter.) 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 18 Assemblyman Pirozzolo. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: Hello. Thank 20 you. 21 I don't know if you're religious. I'm 22 really not very religious. But there is a 23 saying that the Lord works in mysterious 24 ways. And I am stunned that it is me who is 353 1 sitting here talking about the positive 2 benefits of charter schools. All I hear 3 today is that charter schools are villains 4 and are the devil. Listen, you're talking 5 about special education; I get it, maybe they 6 don't have as many. You're talking about 7 transparency -- I get it. But you're also 8 talking about rent. Really, don't we pay for 9 public schools to be open? Don't we have 10 administrative -- or don't we have monies 11 that have to go to maintain public schools? 12 And we talk about collocations. Don't we 13 have schools where there are two public 14 schools collocated together? 15 What are -- you have to be kidding me. 16 All I hear you saying, okay -- and this is 17 just my perception -- is that the leadership 18 of the United Federation of Teachers wants to 19 end the successful education of some students 20 in charter schools because you don't have 21 transparency, you don't have the same special 22 education students, we have to pay additional 23 money for maybe your building. I just -- I 24 just don't get it. The United Federation of 354 1 Teachers does not and should not have a lock 2 on education in New York City, New York 3 State. We are here to provide education to 4 all of our students. 5 And as I have said before, every 6 student that receives an education in a 7 public school -- whether it is a public 8 school or a public charter school -- that 9 goes above and rises above the poverty level, 10 it's a benefit to all of us. And these 11 charter schools predominantly serve Black, 12 Latino, poor communities, that they help 13 these children. And you're standing here or 14 you're sitting before us, everyone is talking 15 about charter schools like they are the 16 devil. 17 MR. PALLOTTA: Never the devil. Maybe 18 a zombie, but not the devil. 19 (Laughter.) 20 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: Well, you 21 might think that's funny, but I don't really 22 think that's funny. 23 MR. PALLOTTA: So I agree 100 percent 24 with the commissioner today when she spoke, 355 1 because that's a lifelong educator who has 2 seen everything over the years, and when she 3 talks about the charters not taking the ENL 4 students or the special ed or -- 5 (Overtalk.) 6 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: If I may, the 7 commissioner also said -- 8 MR. PALLOTTA: -- it is just 9 unacceptable that -- 10 ASSEMBLYMAN PIROZZOLO: -- that 11 charter schools seem to develop in areas 12 where it's only minority communities. Maybe 13 because that's where they're most needed. 14 MR. PALLOTTA: But in conclusion on my 15 little statement here, is that it is -- it is 16 not the devil, it is basically a system where 17 you are taking the money right out of the 18 public schools where, when you lose 60 19 percent of the Foundation Aid increase that 20 the Legislature and the Governor have put 21 into them, that is a big loss. And it is 22 unfair. 23 MS. ALFORD: The United Federation of 24 Teachers, we have run charter schools, we 356 1 represent members in charter schools. We're 2 certainly not trying to vilify charter 3 schools. What we're saying is that there 4 should be equity and transparency, and until 5 that happens, there should not be an 6 expansion. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 8 Senator Murray. 9 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you very much. 10 I'm going to shift gears here off of 11 charters. 12 President Rubio, when you -- 13 congratulations, by the way. But you had 14 mentioned, in your opening statement, the 15 shortage of administrators causes some 16 security concerns. Yesterday we had public 17 hearings on public protection, and we talked 18 about security, but an important part was 19 cybersecurity. Now, I'm from Suffolk County. 20 We suffered a serious ransomware issue that 21 we're still trying to recover from. And when 22 that happened, a lot of the school districts 23 started reaching out, concerned about 24 cybersecurity. 357 1 Is there -- first, is there a plan, is 2 there funding, is there a concerted effort to 3 be preemptive and to be preventative to make 4 sure this doesn't happen? 5 MS. GALLAGHER: I think just one 6 thing, quickly, is that I know that we sit on 7 a task force that SED is -- has convened for 8 many years looking at digital safety, cyber 9 safety. And as part of that, I know they are 10 making recommendations that will be made to 11 the Board of Regents. 12 So it is of great concern for all of 13 our members. And certainly coming back from 14 the pandemic, I know that there were many of 15 our school districts who the cost of what 16 they have to recover from that is extremely 17 challenging for them. 18 SENATOR MURRAY: And that's what I was 19 going to ask, is do you feel that you have 20 the -- whatever's necessary to implement the 21 security measures you need, as far as funding 22 or as far as support? 23 MS. GALLAGHER: Well, we'll have to 24 see what those recommendations come in as and 358 1 any kind of corresponding funding. But 2 certainly we have a voice at that table and 3 we're very -- we're very active in that 4 conversation. 5 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. 6 MS. GALLAGHER: Based on what we hear 7 from our field. 8 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you. 9 MR. RUBIO: Just quickly from my end, 10 we did have a recent cybersecurity breach in 11 New York City. I have to say that the 12 chancellor and his team have been very 13 collaborative and transparent with us and 14 putting resources into their DIIT department 15 and really looking at vendors that do 16 business with the city and have access to 17 emails of both employees, parents, and 18 students. And I believe they're working 19 really hard to make sure that information and 20 our kids are safe. 21 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. Very good, 22 thank you. 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 24 Assemblymember Hyndman. 359 1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I was going to 2 give a history lesson, but I see my colleague 3 has left. 4 To President Rubio, congratulations. 5 We've lost Principal Lilly Lucas, who's now 6 with the Educational Leadership Institute, so 7 I fully support I believe a million dollars 8 in the Governor's budget to make sure that we 9 continue leadership, because we're not 10 talking about the -- how many principals and 11 assistant principals we've lost. And we have 12 to make sure we keep those pipelines open for 13 great leadership. 14 It's great to see you {inaudible}. I 15 know that there's a $100 million ask for 16 Community Schools. Is that for all Community 17 Schools or just UFT Community Schools? 18 MS. ALFORD: The $100 million ask is a 19 NYSUT ask, and it is for Community Schools 20 across the state. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay, thank 22 you. 23 MR. PALLOTTA: See how good we are to 24 each other? 360 1 (Laughter.) 2 MR. PALLOTTA: We're even testifying 3 like this today, having supervisors and -- 4 MS. GALLAGHER: Including this 5 professional development for -- 6 MR. PALLOTTA: Yes, this is for us. 7 Yes. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. All 9 right. Thank you. 10 MR. RUBIO: Thank you. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 12 I think I might be the last Senator. 13 And I don't have too long but, one, I just 14 want to recognize I think what we all feel, 15 how much we appreciate everything all of your 16 members are doing every day for our children. 17 Because I learned probably my first week as a 18 Senator, make sure the principals and 19 teachers are great in your schools and 20 everything will be fine. That's not always 21 possible, we know, but that is my question. 22 When it was asked before, we got some 23 different answers. Do we have a problem with 24 getting a next generation of teachers and 361 1 principals and administrators into our 2 schools, or do we not? I mean, we hear about 3 worker shortages almost on every topic, city 4 and state. So the chancellor for New York 5 City seemed to imply it's all okay, although 6 the chancellor for the state seemed to be 7 that they were more concerned. 8 So from where you sit, is your 9 pipeline moving forward for your teachers and 10 your principals? Are people going into these 11 professions? 12 MR. PALLOTTA: There is definitely a 13 problem on the horizon. Right? You have 14 about a third of the educators are almost of 15 retirement age. So we definitely need to 16 fill those positions. 17 Salary, benefits, working 18 conditions -- the narrative here at the 19 Capitol has changed since the previous 20 governor. Right? So that is really good for 21 all of us, and for children and for puppies, 22 everybody. 23 Tier 6 has been a problem, right? So 24 when folks come in and they realize that this 362 1 has changed so drastically, for them that is 2 a major problem, and that is something we 3 need to fix. 4 Also testing, the obsession with 5 testing has made it into testing mills, 6 right? We want kids, students to enjoy 7 school. That has to be something that -- I 8 loved school. What did you love about 9 school? I can think about what I loved about 10 school, playing the trumpet in Abraham 11 Lincoln High School in Brooklyn. That kept 12 me in school. I only cut one time. Wait, 13 should I strike that from the record, right? 14 (Laughter.) 15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GALLAGHER: And if I 16 could just for a second. We did a survey of 17 our building administrators statewide, and 18 within the next five years we anticipate that 19 a good 62 percent will be thinking about 20 leaving. As well as in my written testimony 21 you'll see that some particular areas -- 22 career and tech programs -- are losing 23 administrators greatly, especially in Central 24 New York. 363 1 MR. RUBIO: Concur with our colleagues 2 here. We have a problem with the teacher 3 piece, the supervisory piece, and if we don't 4 do something about it now, we are all going 5 to regret it later. And so we're all sort of 6 sounding the alarm. We want the best 7 teachers and social workers and guidance 8 counselors, the best assistant principals and 9 principals to lead. And so we need to 10 support them, and we're looking for your 11 support to do that. 12 You know, we hear from our members all 13 the time they have trouble hiring the 14 teachers that they need, especially like the 15 chancellor said this morning -- there is a 16 shortage there especially, but the career's 17 become less and less attractive. And if you 18 don't have the right number of teachers, 19 you're not going to have the assistant 20 principals and then you don't have the 21 principals. And so that trickle effect is 22 going to have an impact on our students. So 23 we do have a problem. 24 MS. ALFORD: We have a problem and we 364 1 are also seeing the reduction of teachers of 2 color, and that is certainly something that 3 we also need to focus on. 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Thank 5 you all very much. 6 Assemblymember Slater. 7 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you very 8 much, Madam Chair. 9 I'm proud to say I'm a product of the 10 public school system. I've got a 11 second-grader and another on the way who's 12 going to be in the public school system as 13 well. 14 And thankfully in my area we haven't 15 had to deal with charter schools. But I'm 16 curious, because I'm being educated on this, 17 what should be the role of local school 18 districts and taxpayers when it comes to 19 decisions on locating charter schools? I 20 haven't heard that part of the equation yet, 21 and I'm just curious from your standpoint 22 what role that would be. 23 MR. PALLOTTA: Local school districts, 24 the parents. Right? We put parents at the 365 1 forefront of all these conversations all day. 2 They should be deciding. The taxpayers 3 should be deciding. And when a charter 4 school comes in and says we want to open in 5 this town and the district says no and the 6 parents say no, we should respect them. We 7 should respect the people who are actually 8 paying the taxes and want the best schools 9 for their students. 10 MR. RUBIO: I couldn't concur more 11 with Andy. We are practitioners, pedagogues, 12 principals, and we're here to serve the 13 public. We're here to serve our parents, and 14 their voices -- and we should absolutely be 15 consulted in that process and policy, but 16 we're here to serve the public and their 17 voices should be respected and listened to. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: I appreciate 19 that. 20 And in regards to universal free 21 lunch, something that I know that we've 22 worked on together with the teachers and 23 administrators in my district, I'm just 24 wondering if you can just weigh in on and 366 1 just reemphasize, if you could, the 2 importance of making sure all of our kids are 3 getting the adequate food they need. Because 4 I can tell you, like I said, I've got a 5 7-year-old and a 3-year-old, and when they're 6 hungry, they're no fun. And so I can't 7 imagine being a teacher in a classroom if 8 you've got, unfortunately, children who are 9 food insecure and can't come to school on a 10 full stomach. 11 MS. GALLAGHER: So from our 12 perspective, building administrators in every 13 corner of the state have been telling us how 14 important it is to provide meals for all 15 students, not just for a certain population. 16 And then when the waiver was ended in 17 February, we saw immediately how important 18 that program had been over the last three 19 years. And to discontinue that now would be 20 a shame. 21 MR. RUBIO: I would encourage our 22 elected officials to visit a school on a 23 Monday morning, go into classrooms with 24 teachers. And when you know your school -- 367 1 as I was a former high school principal, 2 Monday mornings were the most important day. 3 That's when you knew by the look in their 4 faces how hungry they were, and you had to 5 address that with your team of teachers 6 immediately. It impacts all the learning. 7 You can't understand geometry or history or 8 anything else if you're hungry. 9 Just visit us on a Monday morning, 10 you'll see folks working together to make 11 sure that kids are fed and they're learning. 12 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Appreciate that. 13 MR. PALLOTTA: And as someone who did 14 lunch duty and breakfast duty for many years, 15 I can tell you it is real. It is real, and 16 you see the students who really will say, Can 17 I have an extra, can I -- you know, so this 18 is so important. And I know the federal 19 money has dried up, but we're asking the 20 state to take this on. 21 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you all 22 very much. Appreciate it. 23 MR. PALLOTTA: Thank you. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 368 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 2 We go to Assemblymember Jackson. 3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: All right. 4 Hi, everyone. Thank you again for coming in 5 front of us. 6 As a social worker, a licensed social 7 worker, I came out of a high school before I 8 got here, during COVID I did all of my grief 9 counseling and all kind of counseling 10 happening during then, I must say that 11 suspensions don't work. And I understand 12 there needs to be consequences to actions, 13 but we have to figure out how to get students 14 to I guess face consequences without taking 15 them out of the classroom or away from an 16 educational setting. 17 Is there a cost to -- is there a cost 18 that we incur when we suspend students? I'm 19 just wondering why Solutions Not Suspensions 20 doesn't work. Is there some kind of cost 21 related to it that says that this would not 22 be sufficient, we can't do it? 23 MR. RUBIO: I'll take it first. 24 Thank you so much for your question, 369 1 Assemblymember Jackson. I totally agree with 2 you, as a parent of four public school 3 children, that suspension -- to a principal, 4 suspensions alone do not work. I totally 5 agree. I can't remember who asked earlier 6 around what do we need as far as funding for 7 mental health services for students, and I'll 8 just give you a broad -- from our position. 9 And it would be weird for folks to hear that 10 I'm advocating for more of this, because it 11 is, it's true, we need to have schools where 12 the ratio between guidance counselors and 13 students is dramatically lower. It's what I 14 did as a principal, where my guidance 15 counselors -- I didn't have the opportunity 16 to hire social workers at the time, but I 17 agree, we need them. I'll talk more about 18 that in a second. 19 But I had one guidance counselor to 20 600 students. When I went from one guidance 21 counselor to 225, my graduation rate over the 22 years went from 62 to almost 90, because they 23 need those services. 24 At a -- just to start, you need a 370 1 social worker, at least one in every school, 2 and other schools with higher rates of 3 concentration need more than one social 4 worker. So just sort of a baseline, those 5 two things need to work together. If a child 6 is suspended, just to bring them back without 7 the services, it is not going to work. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Okay. And 9 then just to shift very quickly, I hear that 10 there's an issue with teachers of color, not 11 having enough, we're losing them. 12 Is there any kind of track for us to 13 work with HBCUs? They graduate people who 14 are educators every single day. Is there any 15 kind of track, is there any kind of track to 16 get educators into the field of social work 17 and -- I mean to get people into education 18 and social work straight out of high school? 19 Is there any kind of track that we're 20 funding? 21 MS. ALFORD: I don't know that there's 22 a track, but more definitely needs to be 23 done. And Michael Mulgrew is committed to -- 24 and UFT, we're committed to working with 371 1 CUNYs and SUNYs to try to create a pipeline 2 so that folks can do their apprenticeship 3 directly in the schools, and this way we can 4 get them into classrooms a lot sooner. 5 MR. RUBIO: We represent supervisors 6 of social workers, and I totally agree with 7 you, we need to expand the pool for many 8 women of color there as well. 9 MS. GALLAGHER: We've also been 10 working with all of our counterparts in many 11 of the mental health associations to see what 12 kind of unique arrangements we can make. 13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 15 We go to Assemblyman Otis. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you all for 17 your testimony. 18 I want to touch on two issues. First, 19 on Community Schools, just a follow-up on 20 Senator Mayer's question. Could one or more 21 of you detail why it is better to have the 22 Community Schools money outside of the 23 Foundation Aid formula? How we are 24 shortchanging those dollars because it's not 372 1 a separate line. 2 MR. PALLOTTA: Well, I think, on one 3 thing, it won't be put into Community Schools 4 if it's just in a general fund. And we've 5 seen firsthand how this specific model of a 6 school has really worked. Right? Especially 7 in a high-needs district. So we heard about 8 washing machines being in the school. And at 9 first glance, you might say, why that? And 10 then you go into the school, you do a tour 11 with the administrators and the teachers, and 12 you see how productive it is to have all of 13 these in there. 14 So I think having it special, not 15 mixed into the General Fund, is the way to 16 go. 17 MS. GALLAGHER: I think we would raise 18 a concern, however, that -- you know, we've 19 just made a tremendous gain in having 20 Foundation Aid fully phased in, and any of 21 the cutouts for that do undermine those 22 accomplishments. So certainly this is one 23 issue where there are many ways to look at 24 it. 373 1 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Perfect. Well, 2 thank you. 3 The second topic is mental health 4 services. And Henry, I enjoyed hearing how 5 horrible even in the better districts the 6 ratios are, when you think of guidance or 7 mental health services and how time-consuming 8 that is to be one-on-one with a student who 9 needs help. 10 So we have a grant program. And -- 11 but what we don't have is we don't have a 12 general categorical funding line for mental 13 health assistance to school districts. So if 14 any of you could field that and why it would 15 be important for us to look at that, as we 16 fund it, in a different way than the grant 17 model that we now have. 18 MS. GALLAGHER: One of the things that 19 we looked at seriously when we were looking 20 at the Governors' proposal was basically the 21 multiple grants throughout the budget. One 22 of the things you'll see in our written 23 testimony is grants are a great way to get 24 money out to districts, but when they come to 374 1 the districts in seven, 15, 25 different 2 strands, the implementation of that, and the 3 execution, gets very confusing. 4 You heard a lot about UPK, but there's 5 a thousand examples of that. 6 So in general, just good, effective 7 fiscal strategy, perhaps not in execution or 8 creative implementation. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you. 10 Andy or Karen, do you want to feed in 11 on that? 12 MR. PALLOTTA: Thinking on the grants, 13 I'm going back to the commissioner this 14 morning, it seems like 12 hours ago, where 15 she talked about the RECOV grant, like and 16 how that has not worked because the RFP has 17 not been released yet. 18 So things like this are monumental 19 programs that could be really helpful, and we 20 need to get that one out the door. I just 21 want to take the opportunity to say that. 22 MR. RUBIO: Just to piggyback on 23 something the commissioner said also this 24 morning, some flexibility is also better with 375 1 the tutoring piece, for example. As a 2 principal, you're going to have students that 3 need the tutoring, but you're going to have 4 others that need maybe just to be engaged 5 after school in a club or sports or art or 6 music. Or an internship. Or mental health 7 services with a social worker or someone 8 else. 9 So having that flexibility to serve 10 all the children, not just the ones that need 11 tutoring or anything, is very important. So 12 you take care of the whole child and every 13 child in the school. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you very 15 much. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 17 Assemblywoman Levenberg. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Thank you so 19 much, Chair. 20 And thank you to all of the educators. 21 I just wanted to ask for a couple of 22 clarifications. I think you had mentioned 23 that you think, as grateful and excited as we 24 all are to -- looking forward to fully 376 1 funding Foundation Aid, that the formula 2 actually does need to be looked at. I just 3 saw something from the School Boards 4 Association also advocating that not only 5 does it get looked at, but it gets reviewed 6 on a regular basis. 7 So I think that that is something 8 maybe true? 9 MS. GALLAGHER: Absolutely. It is a 10 public policy success, but one that you've 11 heard throughout the day that needs updating, 12 either in regional calls for what is a sound, 13 basic education for students -- so the census 14 data needs to be -- there are lots of 15 components within it that need to be 16 reexamined. 17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Absolutely. 18 MS. ALFORD: And we think also just to 19 maintain the integrity of the aid. 20 And I think all of us heard today 21 oftentimes it was questionable about whether 22 or not the DOE would be able to reduce class 23 size. And knowing that the Foundation Aid 24 is -- part of that is being used precisely 377 1 for that reason, I think we will constantly 2 have to take re-looks at how the dollars are 3 being used. 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN LEVENBERG: Absolutely. 5 And then, again, I'm so excited to 6 hear about the school-based health centers 7 getting funding, and I know that that's 8 certainly led to increases in attendance, 9 making sure that, you know, kids can stay in 10 school when they need to get looked at or get 11 physicals. It's really helped with 12 attendance certainly in schools in my 13 district. 14 I did just want to comment on -- one 15 of my colleagues mentioned that there were no 16 charter schools up in our area. I know that 17 charter schools were -- had applied in 18 Peekskill and Ossining, which I believe was 19 close to my colleague's district as well. 20 And it's something that the parents 21 definitely fought back against, because we 22 knew that it would have a negative impact on 23 our public schools. 24 So I agree with all of your comments 378 1 about the charter schools undermining and not 2 wanting to increase the cap and getting those 3 zombie schools to stay where they are, in the 4 world of the zombies. 5 Also the -- I've heard from a number 6 of my districts about the pre-K funding not 7 being sufficient. And I don't know if 8 anybody wanted to comment on that, that, you 9 know, 5,000 versus 10,000, approximately, per 10 child -- the 10,000 was something that was 11 more adequate because the 5,000 doesn't 12 really account for aides in -- for pre-K 13 funding. 14 And finally, I just wanted to mention 15 about Solutions Not Suspensions. As a school 16 board member for many years, I fought hard to 17 make sure that we had counsel in the room for 18 the -- during hearings, because if students 19 didn't have -- if there wasn't school 20 district counsel in the room, the only thing 21 that a hearing officer could offer was 22 suspension. And I don't think that that is 23 sufficient, and we should be looking at that 24 too. 379 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 2 Our final questioner, our ranker on 3 Ways and Means, Assemblyman Ra. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you. 5 So I wanted to get into an issue I 6 know was in NYSUT's written testimony, but I 7 know you have limited time, and I know it's 8 an issue that is important to you and your 9 members, and that's 4201 schools. 10 And as you're aware, there's a 11 proposed $2 million cut in the Executive 12 Budget. But I also know there's a proposal 13 you've been advocating for in terms of trying 14 to enhance teacher retention for those 15 institutions. So if you can talk a little 16 bit about your opinions on those. 17 MR. PALLOTTA: Definitely. 18 If you've toured some of the 4201 19 schools, you see how many needs there are in 20 those schools. Right? So if it's difficult 21 to teach in a traditional public school, when 22 you go to a special school like that it is 23 even more difficult to attract and retain 24 teachers into those schools. 380 1 So again, we go back to Take a Look at 2 Teaching, which was NYSUT's initiative to 3 have high school students take a look at 4 being a teacher. Right now you have needs 5 not just for teachers, but for bus drivers 6 and paraprofessionals and social workers, so 7 there are needs throughout. But it's in the 8 Special Act schools, special schools, that 9 you can have an even more urgent need. 10 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Well, again, thank 11 you to you and NYSUT for your continued 12 advocacy on behalf of the 4201s and all of 13 our special education schools. 14 MR. PALLOTTA: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 We have no more questions. I just 17 want to, on behalf of all the members, thank 18 you for the work you and your members do in 19 our communities around the state. Thank you. 20 MR. PALLOTTA: Thank you. 21 MR. RUBIO: Thank you. 22 MS. ALFORD: Thank you. 23 MS. GALLAGHER: Thank you. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you all 381 1 very much. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next we have 3 Panel B: Conference of Big 5 School 4 Districts, Syracuse City School District, 5 Buffalo Public Schools, Rochester City School 6 District, and Yonkers Public Schools. 7 And just to remind everyone as you're 8 coming down the steps that all of your 9 testimony has been previously submitted, 10 distributed to the members. And you have 11 three minutes each to summarize what is in 12 your testimony. 13 And just for the next panel to be 14 ready, Panel C is going to be the 15 4201 Schools Association, the New York State 16 Coalition of 853 Schools, and Advocates for 17 Children of New York. So as this panel 18 finishes up, you may want to take seats 19 closer down to the dais. 20 And we just have two mics, so you have 21 to share. 22 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR PYLE: Thanks so 23 much for the opportunity to testify today. 24 We generally have 10 minutes as a group, and 382 1 so I don't generally speak, and that's what 2 we were told, so I'm not going to speak. I 3 did submit written testimony. Folks see me 4 all the time; I'd like to afford them their 5 time, and I know it's been a long day. 6 So again, we've submitted written 7 testimony. If you have any questions or 8 comments, please feel free to reach out. 9 But with that said, I'm going to turn 10 it over to Dr. Quezada. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Great. Thank 12 you. 13 YONKERS SUPERINTENDENT QUEZADA: Thank 14 you, and it is an absolute honor for me to 15 speak to you this afternoon. 16 So good afternoon, everyone. My name 17 is Dr. Edwin Quezada. It is an honor to 18 represent the Yonkers Public Schools in the 19 City of Yonkers. 20 Let me begin with a heartfelt thank 21 you for the commitment and collaboration you 22 have provided. As you will see, Yonkers has 23 given you an outstanding return on your 24 investment and deserves the opportunity to 383 1 continue reimagining education. 2 Yonkers is the most successful large 3 urban school district in the state. The 4 validation is in our graduation and dropout 5 rates. Since 2017 we have consistently 6 achieved graduation rates of over 85 percent. 7 And for the past three years, we have reached 8 91 percent. 9 During the same period, our dropout 10 rate went from 4 percent to 2 percent in 11 2022. Our data show we know how to create 12 the conditions for all students to achieve 13 their potential. Yet for decades our annual 14 challenge is the need to rely on you for 15 nonrecurrent revenue to sustain essential 16 programs, for which we are immensely 17 grateful. 18 For the first time in over 20 years, 19 because of the federal appropriation, Yonkers 20 was able to employ an adequate number of 21 certified support staff to provide essential 22 equitable programs -- altogether, 23 221 positions. And let me emphasize that: 24 221 positions are being funded by this 384 1 nonrecurrent revenue. Yonkers students' 2 essential needs and requisite educational 3 opportunities have not and will not change up 4 to 2024. When the funding runs out, the 5 progress we have instituted must not run out. 6 Yonkers is offering for your 7 consideration 11 viable solutions to help us 8 resolve this potential crisis. Time does not 9 allow me to address all of them, but they are 10 certainly part of your testimony and I would 11 love for you to take a look at them. 12 However, let me highlight four of them 13 for you. One, appropriating above the 14 Governor's budget an extra $40 million over 15 the course of the next two years in 16 Foundation Aid to address next year's 17 $33 million budget shortfall as well as the 18 ARPA funding loss. 19 Yonkers receives a 19.6 million video 20 lottery appropriation as a host community. 21 Increase this appropriation to $31.6 million. 22 Fully fund universal pre-K. Yonkers 23 spends over $25 million, but we only receive 24 about $12 million pre-K. 385 1 And finally, address once and for all 2 the infrastructure challenge Yonkers public 3 schools face daily. Our schools are old, and 4 the building conditions survey identified 5 $520 million in needed repairs to address 6 health and safety concerns. 7 Our students' continued achievement is 8 depending on your continued commitment to our 9 children. Please, help us continue with the 10 success, and we will continue to deliver. 11 Thank you. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 13 Next? 14 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: Good 15 afternoon. This is a very humbling 16 experience for me, the first time that I am 17 before such an esteemed group. I want to 18 thank all of you, each New York State 19 legislator, for this opportunity to testify. 20 My name is Tonja Williams, and I am 21 the proud superintendent of the Buffalo 22 Public School District. We are the 23 second-largest school district in New York 24 State, and so I sit here today representing 386 1 our 30,000 children, 60,000-plus parents, and 2 our 10,000 staff. 3 I also need to extend appreciation, of 4 course, to our fearless leader, Dr. Betty 5 Rosa, and Chancellor Dr. Young, as well as to 6 our New York State Board of Regents. 7 I have shared with you an 11-point 8 legislative request summary. For the purpose 9 of my comments today, and being respectful of 10 the time, I will not be able to touch on each 11 one, but I will begin in an order of priority 12 to the Buffalo Public Schools, discussing 13 what it is that the Buffalo Public Schools is 14 greatly in need of. 15 I begin by sharing that we are in 16 extraordinary times, and so we cannot operate 17 business as usual. I would of course like to 18 thank you all for taking a step with 19 increasing our Foundation Aid. That's very, 20 very, very important to the City of Buffalo 21 and to our schools. But now I must ask that 22 a formula be established that will target 23 specific needs based on the resources that we 24 need in the City of Buffalo. 387 1 We spent $143 million last year on 2 charter schools. I support school choice, 3 but what concerns me in the City of Buffalo 4 is that we are reaching a tipping point 5 whereby 28 percent of school-aged children in 6 the City of Buffalo are now enrolled in 7 charter schools. And this is without the 8 charter schools creating equity, 9 transparency, demonstrated achievement 10 outcomes. There has been a practice, at 11 least in Buffalo with charter schools, where 12 we do see a mass exodus of children midyear, 13 and it absolutely disrupts children's 14 education. 15 Also I would like for this body to 16 consider that there certainly are facility 17 issues with respect to charters. Thank you. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 19 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: Good 20 afternoon. I'm Dr. Carmine Peluso, proud 21 superintendent of the Rochester City School 22 District. And just like my colleague, I'm 23 very humbled as this is the first time I am 24 here to speak in front of you. 388 1 So thank you for the opportunity to 2 address you and to discuss our priorities for 3 the Executive Budget and its impact on our 4 district. 5 I want to extend a special thank you 6 to the chairs of these committees, the 7 Rochester delegation, and the entire 8 Legislature for fulfilling your commitment to 9 the Foundation Aid funding. I'm grateful for 10 your unwavering commitment to meeting the 11 unique needs of our students in the Rochester 12 City School District. 13 Rochester is one of the highest-needs 14 school districts in New York State. The 15 following are several key priorities that the 16 board and I have outlined for this year. 17 We're pleased that the Executive 18 Budget maintains a commitment to the 19 foundation phase-in. However, there should 20 be no set-asides in the budget. Those 21 decisions should be made locally to meet the 22 needs of the district. 23 Going forward, we urge the state to 24 ensure that the Foundation Aid formula is 389 1 transparent, predictable, and captures our 2 unique student needs. 3 We ask and implore you to limit the 4 charter school expansion. Currently 5 approximately 7400, or 25 percent of public 6 school students in the City of Rochester, 7 attend a charter school. In '22-'23, 8 Rochester City School District will pay out 9 more than 100 million in charter school 10 tuition and associated costs. We request 11 that you limit the charter school saturation 12 in urban centers. We ask that the New York 13 State Board of Regents is designated as the 14 sole charter-authorizing entity. 15 The Rochester City School District 16 provides valuable physical and mental health 17 services to our students outside of the 18 regular school day. We urge you to reinstate 19 the $1.2 million Rochester School Health 20 Service Grant funds that have been removed 21 from the Governor's budget. These funds 22 provide additional targeted school health 23 services to assist with increased demands. 24 We support the Governor's inclusion of 390 1 the retiree earnings waiver extension and 2 recommend it include operational staff in the 3 New York State Employee Retirement System. 4 Additionally, we implore your support for 5 civil service reform to address labor 6 shortages in our schools. 7 The current Transportation Aid mileage 8 limitation must be aligned with conditions in 9 our school district. We are struggling with 10 crime surrounding our schools. It's 11 imperative this issue be addressed by 12 providing reimbursement for transportation 13 below the current 1.5-mile limit. 14 I once again want to thank you all for 15 supporting the Rochester City School 16 District, our students, our community, and 17 prioritizing student needs. Thank you. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 19 Syracuse? 20 SYRACUSE SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS: Good 21 afternoon. My name is Anthony Davis -- and 22 for those of you who are sports fans, I'm a 23 little shorter than that other guy. 24 (Laughter.) 391 1 SYRACUSE SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS: But 2 I'm Anthony Davis, and I have the privilege 3 of serving the students and families of 4 Syracuse as the superintendent of the 5 Syracuse City School District. I appreciate 6 the opportunity to be here, and I'm going to 7 make it a trinity, because I'm also brand-new 8 into this role. 9 I really want to say thank you, 10 because as a result of your commitment to 11 funding public education, the children of 12 Syracuse City School District are on their 13 way to academic recovery and success. 14 But I do want to mention the funding 15 cliff that's coming. We remain deeply 16 concerned about the funding cliff looming 17 once federal stimulus funds have been 18 exhausted. As you may be aware, our district 19 has no ability to generate local revenue 20 given our fiscal dependency on the City of 21 Syracuse, where over 50 percent of our 22 properties are exempt from property taxes. 23 In 2024-'25 when these federal stimulus funds 24 expire, we will need to secure new sources of 392 1 funding to be able to continue to provide the 2 $41 million worth of programs and supports 3 that these funds currently make possible, 4 because our students' needs for academic and 5 social-emotional supports will continue when 6 these funds no longer exist. 7 As we enter an era of unprecedented 8 student academic and social-emotional needs, 9 we need the flexibility to innovate, 10 reengineer, and respond in ways that will 11 best support our students. We seek the 12 Legislature's support in providing us that 13 flexibility by removing restrictions on how 14 districts can utilize our Foundation Aid -- 15 restrictions such as proposed high-impact 16 tutoring restrictions, and the established 17 Community Schools and Contract for Excellence 18 restrictions should be eliminated. 19 In Syracuse we're very unique to the 20 point where we have 27 career and technical 21 education programs that we really pride 22 ourselves on, and we start those programs in 23 ninth grade in Syracuse. But the ninth-grade 24 portion of that CTE program is not funded, 393 1 and we are seeking funding for our ninth 2 grade as well because we feel it would be 3 beneficial to our students. 4 The teacher staffing shortage. To 5 address that, we would ask to continue the 6 temporary waiver of the income cap for 7 returning retirees because as of right now, 8 they are filling a huge gap for us in our 9 district. We need those folks to be able to 10 come back and work for us because we just 11 don't have the workforce out there. 12 And expand the alternative teacher 13 certification process. And if we could 14 simplify the certification process, that 15 would be outstanding as well. 16 And I believe my colleagues have 17 covered the charter school argument, so I'm 18 going to let that go for now, and we can take 19 any questions that you might have. 20 Thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sure. We have 22 a number of questions. 23 First we'll start with our Education 24 chair, Assemblyman Benedetto. 394 1 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: (Mic off.) 2 Thank you all for being here and taking the 3 time out to be before us. 4 One quick question. Your graduation 5 requirements, the graduation requirements to 6 get a diploma at a high school here in the 7 State of New York, does it fit the needs of 8 your students? 9 Isn't the mic on? Oh, my God. 10 (Laughter.) 11 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Do you hear -- 12 okay, yes. It's about your graduation 13 requirements, okay, in your city. Okay? 14 What we require in the State of New York, 15 does it fit the needs of the students that 16 you are educating? 17 YONKERS SUPERINTENDENT QUEZADA: So 18 Assemblyman Benedetto, thank you for that 19 question. And on behalf of the Big 5, I am a 20 member of the blue-ribbon commission on 21 graduation that the commissioner put 22 together, an incredible group of individuals 23 answering your question: Is what we're doing 24 enough for the young people who graduate from 395 1 our schools to be ready to enter college and 2 the world of work. And the conversation is 3 extremely rich. I think we are going to be 4 in a great place by the time we are finished. 5 By this summer we will be finalizing a 6 document that will be a recommendation to the 7 Board of Regents. 8 We are significantly discussing career 9 and technical education. We are 10 significantly addressing what most of us 11 considered to be soft skills, which we can no 12 longer call them soft skills, we have to call 13 them essential skills. And then we also are 14 discussing extensively the concept of 15 project-based learning. Project-based 16 learning allows for the students to acquire 17 those essential skills in a way that is 18 different. 19 But remember that if we are to create 20 a portrait of a graduate in New York State 21 that supports the business community, then 22 your investment is critical. And I think the 23 word that's going to come out of the Regents 24 is going to drive that investment, and we 396 1 look forward for the commissioner to share 2 the final document with you as well. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: I'm fine. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 We go to Senator Mayer. 6 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you very much. 7 Thank you to my friends. A special 8 thank you to my personal superintendent, 9 Dr. Quezada, and to my friends from Yonkers 10 who have led an incredible fight, along with 11 you in the Big 5, to improve our school 12 systems in our cities outside of New York 13 City. Thank you to all of you. 14 One thing I think would be helpful, 15 Dr. Quezada particularly -- and I think this 16 applies to all of you -- the ARPA, the 17 federal ARPA money was intended to be used 18 for nonrecurring expenses because they were 19 intended to be COVID-related. Yet in Yonkers 20 and in many other districts, you have used 21 the money to replace a structural inequity, 22 which is that our students did not have 23 social workers, guidance counselors, art 24 teachers, music teachers. 397 1 And now it is unique to your districts 2 that we are facing this funding cliff that 3 you are concerned about. Can you explain why 4 in Yonkers we hired 221 people that we're 5 going to need to continue to have on the 6 payroll -- and I know it goes for all of 7 you -- when it was not the original intent 8 but it was absolutely mandatory to meet the 9 needs of our community. 10 YONKERS SUPERINTENDENT QUEZADA: First 11 of all, Senator Mayer, I think on behalf of 12 all of us, thank you for the work that you 13 have done on behalf of education in New York 14 State. You are a true champion of this work, 15 and I am fortunate enough to be able to call 16 you a friend and to spend time in our 17 wonderful City of Yonkers. 18 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you, but don't 19 use up my time. 20 (Laughter.) 21 YONKERS SUPERINTENDENT QUEZADA: No, 22 no. So I think you articulated the need in 23 Yonkers better than I could possibly do. You 24 know, 221 positions that did not exist in the 398 1 Yonkers Public Schools for 20 years. You 2 know, shame on all of us that we did not have 3 a psychologist in every one of our schools, 4 we didn't have counselors in every one of our 5 schools, we didn't have enough social 6 workers, we didn't have enough safety 7 officers. Art and music disappeared in the 8 Yonkers Public Schools. 9 So me as the superintendent, when that 10 money appeared, I was going to put the 11 services for my children in the classroom 12 where they need them most. 13 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: And 14 I could echo that for the City of Buffalo. 15 We now are in a situation where every single 16 one of our schools is staffed with school 17 counselors, with social workers, with 18 psychologists. We've been able to increase 19 school security in the schools. And, you 20 know, it's only benefiting the children. And 21 we see it. We see it. 22 SENATOR MAYER: Yes, I just -- just 23 briefly, because I have little time left. On 24 the charter saturation in each of your 399 1 communities, I know the superintendent -- 2 Madam Superintendent, yours is close to 3 25 percent in Buffalo, is that right? 4 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: When 5 we actually looked at our data, as of 6 yesterday, it's 28 percent. So it's even 7 higher. 8 SENATOR MAYER: Twenty-eight percent. 9 And Syracuse and Rochester? 10 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: So 11 we're at roughly 25 percent right now, 12 7400 students. 13 SENATOR MAYER: And Syracuse? 14 SYRACUSE SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS: I 15 think we're just a little bit under 25. 16 SENATOR MAYER: A little under 17 25 percent. 18 SYRACUSE SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS: Yes. 19 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you very much. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 21 We go to Assemblyman Smith. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you. 23 And thank you all for your work for 24 the benefit of our children and families. 400 1 Dr. Williams, I just wanted to ask, 2 because your city -- the last year has been 3 really a tough time. I know the rest of the 4 state -- I'm from downstate -- we're all 5 thinking about everybody there and 6 everything, with the snowstorm, with the 7 shooting. Can you speak to some of the 8 things that you've taken action on or needed 9 assistance with to try to, you know, help the 10 community come together? Because I'm sure 11 there are a lot of things. 12 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: 13 Sure. Thank you for that question. 14 The City of Buffalo, this past year 15 certainly we have had our share of 16 challenges. They began really last February. 17 Unfortunately, we did have a shooting and a 18 stabbing outside of a school, and, you know, 19 our former superintendent resigned and I was 20 put in as interim. And then we had a mass 21 shooting in our city in May, and we've had a 22 couple of snowstorms. We had an earthquake 23 two days ago, which, you know, was 24 interesting. 401 1 But some of the things that we have 2 done is that we have really enhanced 3 restorative practice training for our staff. 4 Trauma-informed care is really something that 5 is a fabric that's engrained in all of our 6 schools. We have worked very, very closely 7 with community-based organizations. They've 8 really wrapped their arms around them, so in 9 all our schools we have mental health 10 services in every single one of our schools. 11 because whatever happens in the city 12 certainly touches all of our families and it 13 touches all of our children also. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 16 Senator Jackson. 17 SENATOR JACKSON: Good afternoon, 18 everyone. Thank you for coming and giving a 19 report. 20 I just -- I have a question right now 21 for the Rochester School District. Are you 22 aware that -- of the proposed cut of 23 $325,000 for the special monitor you have 24 there? Can you speak on that, and how long 402 1 have you had the monitor and what's the 2 status of the system? 3 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: So 4 that is in our legislative priorities. Thank 5 you for the question. It has been removed 6 for funding -- 7 SENATOR MAYER: I'm sorry, it's still 8 hard to hear you. 9 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: Is 10 that better now? 11 SENATOR MAYER: Yes. 12 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: 13 Sorry. So it has been removed as an item in 14 the budget for $175,000. Our monitor's 15 contract ends this year. We would wait to 16 hear what the state is going to do with the 17 request for a monitor. But if the request is 18 still to maintain a monitor in our district, 19 right now as the budget stands it would be an 20 unfunded mandate for us. So we would request 21 that that money be back in the budget if it 22 is going to be part of it. 23 Now, that $175,000 that's on there for 24 that one line item is a portion of the 403 1 monitor's contract. So it's not the full 2 contract. But if we are going to continue 3 with the monitor, we would request that that 4 funding be put back into the budget. 5 SENATOR JACKSON: And that was 6 monitoring the school system, is that 7 correct? 8 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: That 9 is correct. That's the independent monitor 10 for the school system. 11 SENATOR JACKSON: And how's your 12 budget -- I understand that you basically set 13 your own budget, not the mayor of Rochester, 14 is that correct? 15 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: So 16 we -- yes, we set our own budget. We have a 17 $110 million give from the city every year 18 that's been the give for -- I think as long 19 as 20-plus years consistently. But yes, we 20 set our own budget. 21 SENATOR JACKSON: So are you 22 anticipating that you will keep your same 23 staffing and maintain it, rather than having 24 to cut staff concerning your budget this 404 1 year? 2 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: This 3 year's budget, I believe with the additional 4 Foundation Aid, we are going to be able to 5 maintain. I am worried about what's going to 6 happen in '24-'25 with the reduction of ARP, 7 if the ARP money ends as -- and there's no 8 extension in terms of the spend on that. As 9 well as, you know, our current district 10 footprint and our size, based on -- will need 11 to be revisited to make sure that we're using 12 our resources as best we can, and it will 13 have an impact on our budget for the '24-'25 14 budget. 15 SENATOR JACKSON: And what about 16 Buffalo, New York? How are we doing? 17 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: We 18 are pretty much the same, although we started 19 to work proactively in looking at everything 20 that we have that's funded from the ARP 21 budget, and we're trying to plan and see how, 22 you know, we will continue services with 23 possibly less dollars. 24 SENATOR JACKSON: And I heard you 405 1 mention recently that you have counselors, 2 you have social workers and all the things 3 you need right now. Will you be able to 4 maintain those services a year or two years 5 from now? 6 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: 7 That's going to be a priority. Our children 8 need it. Our children have been through a 9 lot of grief, a lot of trauma. They've had 10 interrupted educational services. And so 11 that's something that will be prioritized. 12 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. My time 13 is up. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 15 Before we go on to additional 16 legislators, I just wanted to mention first, 17 for the legislators, all of the testimony of 18 these witnesses, all the nongovernmental 19 witnesses, was emailed I believe yesterday. 20 But the nongovernmental witnesses are 21 trying -- and Mr. Tedisco could appreciate 22 this -- to save a little paper, save a few 23 trees. 24 And also, if there are people who are 406 1 here as witnesses in future panels today and 2 you have not yet checked in with our staff, 3 can you please do so at the desk at the top 4 of the stairs to my right, your left. Thank 5 you. 6 And now we go to Assemblymember 7 Jackson. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Hi. Thank you 9 for your testimony. 10 I'm hearing that Yonkers is doing 11 great things. I'm just wondering -- and I 12 know Rochester is struggling, right, with 13 their school system. So I'm just wondering 14 is there -- is there a cost per student that 15 works and can be utilized in other areas? 16 So what's the cost per student, I 17 guess, in Yonkers that we've seen is working, 18 and can we then duplicate that in other 19 areas? And would that be part of the 20 solution to getting better graduation rates 21 in other areas? 22 YONKERS SUPERINTENDENT QUEZADA: Thank 23 you, Assemblymember Jackson. 24 And, you know, that's such an 407 1 interesting question. The per-pupil 2 expenditure in the City of Yonkers is an easy 3 $25,000 per student. 4 You know, the state gives us under 5 $8,000 per student. Yonkers is 272 on the 6 list of per-pupil appropriation for a city of 7 our size. I think the concept of success is 8 driven by the consistency that we put in 9 place and by the funding that is 10 appropriated. 11 My colleagues are wonderful 12 superintendents. They are new to their 13 districts. Fortunately, this is the ninth 14 time that I'm coming before you. So 15 consistency matters when we speak about 16 success, and funding matters when we speak 17 about success. And per-pupil appropriation 18 has to come to a level per student for us -- 19 you know, an urban community -- that will 20 exceed $25,000. 21 You know, this concept of $10,000 in 22 today's day and age, with the needs of our 23 students, just doesn't work. 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Got it. 408 1 And my colleague from Rochester, is 2 there anything that you think would be 3 helpful in increasing your literacy and 4 graduation rate when it comes to funding and 5 finance? 6 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: 7 Yeah, I believe that once again, having the 8 increased Foundation Aid, if we can maintain 9 that money to continue to support literacy at 10 the early grades, would be extremely 11 important. 12 I just want to say from a set 13 per-pupil amount, right, our kids all carry 14 different needs, different supports, 15 different -- you know, some of them are ELLs, 16 some of them are students with disabilities, 17 so it makes it really hard to kind of say 18 that there's one set amount that could help. 19 So I think funding in order to help 20 our students with disabilities, our English 21 language learners -- we have a large 22 percentage, upwards of 24 percent, of 23 students with disabilities, and we need to 24 make sure that we have funding to support 409 1 them as well. 2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Got it. Thank 3 you. 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 5 Senator John Liu. 6 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 7 Thanks very much for all of your great 8 work. 9 If you're at like a quarter of your 10 student populations going to charter schools, 11 do you still need as many schools as you 12 have? Or does it make sense to maybe shut 13 some of them down? 14 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: So 15 in the City of Buffalo we have closed some 16 schools, but what we find is that you may 17 have, you know, two students from this school 18 or three students from that school, and it 19 makes it difficult to condense or collapse 20 schools. 21 And also what we find is that midyear 22 many, many of our children come back to the 23 Buffalo public schools. So they may leave at 24 the start of the school year, and by the end 410 1 of February, between the end of February and 2 May is where we see most of our children 3 returning. 4 SENATOR LIU: But you're talking about 5 25, maybe 28 percent of your student 6 population is going to charter schools. So 7 it's not like a couple of students here or 8 there. You know, I'm guessing you're talking 9 about hundreds at one school, particularly. 10 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: No, 11 we have 60 schools, so it wouldn't be at one 12 school. 13 But we do have, you know -- so let's 14 just say -- 15 SENATOR LIU: No, what I mean is it 16 could be over a hundred students at one 17 particular school. 18 I'm getting at like do you -- is it 19 possible to shut down any of these schools so 20 that you ease the strain? 21 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: We 22 have. We've collapsed. Yes, we have, in the 23 last couple of years. 24 SENATOR LIU: You have collapsed 411 1 schools already. 2 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: Yes. 3 SENATOR LIU: Is there an opportunity 4 to collapse more, or is that -- does that 5 become much more logistically difficult? 6 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: We 7 would like to not collapse any more schools. 8 We would like to maintain our students. We 9 would like to ask if -- you know, if this 10 body would consider us not expanding 11 additional charter schools until we get a 12 handle on -- you know, in fact there are 13 other charter schools that are in the City of 14 Buffalo actually educating children at the 15 same level that the Buffalo public schools 16 are. We looked at, you know, our data -- 17 SENATOR LIU: How do all these charter 18 schools come into Buffalo or Syracuse or 19 Rochester or I guess Yonkers too, although I 20 don't think Dr. Quezada addressed the charter 21 school issue -- how do all these charter 22 schools get there? 23 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: 24 That's a good question. I'll have to confer 412 1 with Dr. Quezada to see what he's doing in 2 Yonkers so that we can limit it. 3 SENATOR LIU: Well, perhaps -- 4 SYRACUSE SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS: I'm 5 not sure how they got to Syracuse, but 6 they're there. And what we've done is use 7 that opportunity in a way that we're trying 8 to do some specialized things for our 9 students in different neighborhoods to 10 provide more equity. 11 So, as I talked about, our career and 12 technical education programs, those are 13 spread out throughout our city so that kids 14 are actually doing a lot more things that 15 they're interested in. 16 SENATOR LIU: We heard from the 17 previous panel that the charter schools were 18 approved over the objections of your local 19 school systems. 20 SYRACUSE SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS: Some 21 of that is true, yes. 22 SENATOR LIU: Mr. Davis, do you have 23 anything with Syracuse? I'm sorry, Doctor -- 24 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: I do 413 1 want to echo those remarks, that we have 2 reduced our footprint and we have closed 3 buildings in situations where our enrollment 4 is declining. 5 I will -- I know our time's up, but, 6 you know, charter schools do a better job of 7 marketing than we do sometimes, and we need a 8 better marketer of our -- what we offer our 9 kids. We offer just as good programs in the 10 district as they do. 11 But we have looked at our buildings, 12 and we have reduced buildings. 13 SENATOR LIU: Do you keep waitlists 14 for your public schools? 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Time's up, 16 Senator. 17 SENATOR LIU: Okay, thank you. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 19 Assemblywoman Hyndman. 20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Thank you. 21 Would you be able to break down for 22 the districts that have charter schools, are 23 they chain, are they individually operated? 24 What are you finding in your districts? 414 1 When we say chains, in New York City 2 we usually mean like -- there are certain 3 models that are, you know, more than one 4 location, several -- 5 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: I 6 think we certainly have a little of all of it 7 in Buffalo. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: A mix of all, 9 okay. 10 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: The 11 same. 12 SYRACUSE SUPERINTENDENT DAVIS: The 13 same thing in Syracuse. 14 ROCHESTER SUPERINTENDENT PELUSO: We 15 do have a mix. We have both. 16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. And 17 is -- I notice Albany's not here. Are we 18 looking for -- is there a search on for 19 Albany superintendent? Is there a search 20 going on right now for Albany superintendent? 21 Because we lost Superintendent Adams, right? 22 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR PYLE: Yes. 23 Kaweeda Adams is now a deputy with the Big 5 24 {inaudible}. 415 1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Oh, okay. And 2 I was under the impression outside of 3 New York City BOCES exists in all areas. All 4 of you put CTE in your written thing. You 5 don't have -- so all the Big 5 and New York 6 City do not -- 7 YONKERS SUPERINTENDENT QUEZADA: 8 (Inaudible.) 9 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR PYLE: Actually, in 10 addition to the Big 5, Albany is actually 11 {inaudible}. There are a handful of 12 districts across the state that are not 13 {inaudible}, including the Big 5. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Okay. Thank 15 you. 16 YONKERS SUPERINTENDENT QUEZADA: We do 17 use services from the BOCES that are around 18 us. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Oh, you do. 20 Okay. All right, thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Is 22 Assemblywoman Simon here? I think she 23 stepped out. 24 Assemblyman Conrad. 416 1 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Thank you, Chair. 2 Hi. This is specifically to 3 Dr. Williams. 4 It's good to see you. You've been 5 through a lot in your first year in tenure at 6 the Buffalo City Schools in this position, so 7 I'll take it lightly. But we've got a lot of 8 news in the Buffalo News and articles, and 9 especially things going on in McKinley. Just 10 your thoughts about the -- how do you view 11 the need to balance the student behavior 12 accountability issue and the school safety 13 with the conversations right now around the 14 push to reduce suspensions that we've been 15 seeing, but also just, you know, other -- in 16 other disciplinary measures. 17 How are you juggling that? What's 18 your thoughts on that as we get into this? 19 Because, you know, it's something that -- we 20 don't want to see kids suspended, I think is 21 the right answer. But at the same time, what 22 is working? And we want to keep kids safe, 23 too, in that classroom as well. So what's 24 your thoughts? 417 1 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: 2 Absolutely. We have prioritized safety, 3 security, and wellness in the Buffalo public 4 schools, and we really started with a very 5 aggressive model about restorative practice 6 and trauma-informed care training. We 7 started by training all of our school 8 leaders, and we are now in the process of 9 rolling the trainings out in a very systemic 10 and strategic way to our staff, to our 11 teachers. 12 We work very closely with our parents. 13 We have parent education liaisons in every 14 building, so they are now working with our 15 parents. We increased the number of school 16 security officers that we have, so that we 17 will have school security in all of our 18 schools. 19 We recently also purchased -- they're 20 called Evolv scanners, so they're kind of 21 metal detectors, when any visitor or student 22 enters our school, that they go through. 23 They're non-obtrusive. They're not hardened. 24 You know, we've been keeping a monitor on 418 1 that. And the children have shared that they 2 actually feel safer with those scanners being 3 implemented. 4 So we're taking some very strategic 5 steps to make sure that all of our schools 6 are safe. 7 We also have enhanced the 8 social-emotional learning curriculum, and 9 we've really, you know, focused a lot on our 10 students in pre-K through grade 3, but it's 11 something that we intend to grow. And during 12 the summer we do a lot of work with 13 social-emotional learning with our children. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Thanks for -- 15 thank you for that. 16 And I know you mentioned it briefly, 17 talking about charter schools, but you 18 mentioned problems with the charter school 19 facilities before you kind of ended out. Is 20 there anything you wanted to add to that 21 conversation? 22 BUFFALO SUPERINTENDENT WILLIAMS: 23 Yeah. You know, many of our charter schools 24 exist in former schools that were Buffalo 419 1 public schools. And, you know, they now 2 are -- have been converted into charter 3 schools. And, you know, we've developed a 4 team, a very diverse stakeholder team that is 5 talking a look at all of the buildings that 6 we have in our school district. 7 Some of our buildings are very 8 antiquated and don't necessarily still meet 9 the needs of the students. We would like to 10 have buildings that are state of the art, and 11 I think that's a part of us maintaining some 12 of the students within our district. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 14 Thank you all for your participation today 15 at our hearing. Thank you. 16 Our next panel is comprised of the 17 4201 Schools Association, the New York State 18 Coalition of 853 Schools, and Advocates for 19 Children. 20 As they make their way down, the panel 21 following will be the New York State Council 22 of School Superintendents, New York State 23 School Boards Association, BOCES of New York 24 State, Rural Schools Association of New York 420 1 State, and New York State Parent Teacher 2 Association. 3 If you want to make yourselves -- come 4 down the steps so that we can move on to you 5 when we get there. 6 And while we're getting everybody 7 seated, Assemblyman Manktelow has joined us. 8 So could we start with the 4201 9 Schools Association? 10 DR. KAPPEN: Good afternoon. My name 11 is Bernadette Kappen. I'm the chair of the 12 4201 Schools Association. And thank you for 13 having us here today. 14 I first want to thank the Assembly and 15 the Senate for their long-standing support of 16 the 4201 schools. You've been our champions 17 for so many years. 18 I'm here today to ask for a few 19 things; one, for our support from the state. 20 First, that you would reject the Governor's 21 proposal to eliminate $2 million in our 22 budget. This is really critical, that we're 23 able to maintain the funding for our schools. 24 And the second is to increase our 421 1 direct support by 6 percent. This is the 2 only way that we're able to maintain any kind 3 of growth for our schools, and this would be 4 meeting the needs of the students as they 5 change. We've heard so much here today about 6 mental health. This is the only way that 7 we're able to continue to support our own 8 students. The Governor has a $10 million 9 proposal in her budget that we are not able 10 to take part in, so that we have to use our 11 funds to support our children in this way. 12 And our children have the same needs as any 13 of the other children that would be in public 14 schools. 15 We are happy to see, once again, that 16 there's the support for the capital 17 improvements for our schools. As you know, 18 many of our schools are very old. One school 19 is over 200 years old, others are nearing 20 200, and we need to really be able to have 21 good facilities that are safe for our 22 students and that they can have a quality 23 education there. 24 A fund balance. This is something 422 1 we've been thinking about, and it's really 2 good practice in business, that we would be 3 able to retain a small amount of money that 4 could be used for emergencies at the school. 5 And we know what we experienced with the 6 pandemic was challenging. And people have 7 talked about the stimulus and pandemic 8 monies. We never received any direct money 9 in this way. We're able to get some monies 10 through the school districts for supplies, 11 maybe some support, but not for these direct 12 things that other schools are talking about. 13 So if there had been a fund balance, 14 that could have really been helpful to us. 15 And we hope that that would be something we'd 16 be able to access in the future. 17 An area that I'd really like to stress 18 for you today is the support for salary 19 growth and workforce investment. Our 20 children have very unique and special needs. 21 You can imagine, if you're a teacher of the 22 blind, that you need to be really skilled in 23 Braille. We need staff that are able to 24 teach children to travel independently in the 423 1 community, in addition to their academic 2 needs. 3 If you're in a school for the deaf, 4 those teachers need to be well-versed in 5 language and communication to provide that 6 direct access to learning for the children, 7 with a high level of skill in sign language. 8 And for our colleagues that support 9 children that are severely physically 10 disabled, many of these children have extreme 11 health problems and probably would not be 12 able to be in school if it wasn't for the 13 specialized school. Some of them are on 14 different types of oxygen, they may have 15 trachs that they're using, that they need 16 those health services at their school. 17 Our teachers are really committed to 18 the students. However, there's a huge gap 19 between what we can pay them and what they 20 can get paid in the regular public school or 21 at a BOCES. We provide a lot of staff 22 development for our folks, and they're in 23 need out there. They're being recruited away 24 from us. They could leave one of our schools 424 1 and probably make 15,000 to 20,000 dollars 2 more. 3 So we really need to work on this. 4 For our children to succeed and to achieve, 5 we need to have quality teachers. And we've 6 heard this all morning and in the afternoon: 7 It's hard to recruit teachers into the field. 8 We would ask you to consider $30 million over 9 three years. 10 Thank you so much. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 12 DR. PLACKE: Good afternoon. My name 13 is Dr. Ed Placke. I'm the president of the 14 853 Coalition. It represents 853 schools 15 throughout New York State. I'm also the 16 executive director of Green Chimneys, which 17 is an 853 residential program located on 18 700 acres in Putnam County, New York, and we 19 were the first group to figure out that 20 animals regulate children. So that's worked 21 out really well for us. 22 As far as today is concerned, I 23 realize there's a variety of asks, and I have 24 a very simple ask on behalf of the families 425 1 and the children as well as the staff of the 2 853s. And there's about 60 of us, somewhere 3 in that range, and we educate less than 1 4 percent of the overall population of kids 5 with disabilities. We primarily work with 6 youngsters who have significant mental health 7 issues, of average intelligence, but have a 8 variety of behavioral issues, emotional 9 issues. Many of our schools also work with 10 youngsters with developmental disabilities. 11 The common denominator with all of our 12 students is that they're not able to be 13 educated in their home school district or in 14 a BOCES program. 15 And ironically, I see Mr. Tedisco. 16 Almost 20 years ago I sat here with 17 Commissioner Mills, when I was the assistant 18 commissioner of education, and talked about 19 the tuition methodology that funds the 853s 20 as well as Special Act schools, and that it's 21 going to put schools in fiscal peril. Well, 22 almost 20 years later we're absolutely there. 23 And Dr. Rosa spoke eloquently about our 24 tuition methodology system. We said it was 426 1 broke, and it is absolutely broke. The good 2 news is the Governor has put $2.5 million in 3 the budget to help reimagine what that looks 4 like. And almost 20 years ago we talked 5 about poor technology, it was laborious, it 6 was never accurate, it was always late -- and 7 it hasn't changed in almost 20 years. 8 So my hope is that you'll get behind 9 that particular part of the budget. 10 The other thing we're advocating for 11 is our workforce. Most of my colleagues said 12 working in an 853 are challenges to public 13 schools. And I know in Putnam County we're 14 about 30 to 35 percent less than the local 15 public schools as far as salary. We're also 16 not in the Teachers Retirement System. I'm 17 not advocating for that today, but that's a 18 real hook for many teachers when they realize 19 what kind of support that is long-term. 20 The other part of the ask is a 21 12.1 percent COLA. Last year, thanks to the 22 Legislature, we got an 11 percent COLA. 23 We're asking for a 12.1 percent to be 24 somewhat equitable with the school districts, 427 1 but to also help with our staffing. Right 2 now 25 percent of our group indicates that 3 they can't find teachers who are certified, 4 and they can't find social workers, 5 clinicians and other clinical-type folks. So 6 we are really challenged by that. 7 So again, thank you. 8 MS. LEVINE: Thank you for the 9 opportunity to speak with you. My name is 10 Randi Levine. I'm policy director of 11 Advocates for Children of New York. 12 We are very pleased that the Executive 13 Budget includes the full implementation of 14 Foundation Aid for the first time. This 15 funding increase is sorely needed, and we 16 thank Governor Hochul and the Legislature. 17 We will briefly outline 18 recommendations based on our work on the 19 ground helping thousands of New York families 20 navigate the education system each year. 21 First, we support funding for 22 high-impact tutoring in reading and math. We 23 urge you to ensure that any funding that 24 moves forward for tutoring can be used for 428 1 students in grades K-12, not just grades 3-8. 2 Each year we hear from numerous families of 3 children, including high schoolers, who are 4 struggling with reading and cannot get help. 5 We can't leave these students behind. 6 Second, we are pleased that the 7 Executive Budget includes $2.5 million for a 8 study of alternative tuition rate-setting 9 methodologies for preschool special education 10 programs and state-approved nonpublic schools 11 for students with disabilities. However, we 12 are concerned about the requirement that the 13 recommendations be cost-neutral and urge you 14 to eliminate this language. 15 The state is failing to meet its 16 obligation to students with disabilities and 17 must have the flexibility to consider 18 methodologies that will enable these schools 19 to have the teachers, service providers and 20 specialized programs they need, even if doing 21 so costs more than current spending. 22 We also urge you to ensure there is a 23 rate increase for these programs on par with 24 the increase to school districts this year. 429 1 Third, only 65 percent of English 2 language learners graduated high school in 3 four years in 2022, and 16 percent dropped 4 out statewide. But the Executive Budget does 5 not include any new targeted investments for 6 ELLs. We recommend the budget include 7 $1 million for a bilingual educator pipeline 8 program to increase access to certified 9 bilingual educators and bilingual special 10 education teachers. 11 Fourth, the COVID-19 pandemic has 12 spurred a youth mental health crisis. We are 13 pleased the Executive Budget includes 14 $10 million for student mental health support 15 programs, among other investments, but it is 16 not nearly enough to support students 17 statewide. We urge you to increase 18 investments in school-based behavioral and 19 mental health supports by $100 million, and 20 to pass the Solutions Not Suspensions Act to 21 keep students in school, supported and 22 learning. 23 Fifth, we urge you to reject the 24 Executive Budget proposals to lift the 430 1 regional charter school cap and to reissue 2 charters from schools that closed until civil 3 rights issues are addressed and financial 4 implications for district schools are 5 assessed. We need clarifications in the law 6 to protect the rights of students with 7 disabilities, English language learners, and 8 students facing suspension or expulsion at 9 charter schools and ensure needed funding is 10 not diverted from district schools. 11 Finally, we are concerned about the 12 expiration of the federal COVID-19 relief 13 funding in the fall of 2024. In New York 14 City alone, more than $700 million is being 15 used for education initiatives that will 16 continue to be needed: 3-K, preschool 17 special education programs, social workers, 18 nurses, Community Schools, supports for 19 students with dyslexia and students who are 20 homeless, and much more. Elected officials 21 at all levels need to start planning now to 22 identify funding to sustain these 23 initiatives. 24 Thank you. 431 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 2 Assemblyman Benedetto. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Speaking? 4 Speaking, good. 5 Thank you for your testimony. Thank 6 you for being here. You know, I'm really 7 sorry -- and please forgive us -- for 8 years you have taught, and you have taught so 9 wonderfully and worked for our students, and 10 we have treated you shabbily. You have been 11 fighting endlessly for more money that should 12 have been rightly given to you, and the fight 13 continues. 14 And all I can say is we will try. We 15 have listened to your testimony; we will try 16 to do what we can to finally put this to bed 17 and properly educate the kids in New York 18 schools. So do forgive us, but we will try. 19 Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Shelley 22 Mayer. 23 SENATOR MAYER: Well, good afternoon. 24 Good to see you. Dr. Kappen particularly, 432 1 very nice to see you. 2 A question for you all on the 3 Governor's proposal to have a new 4 rate-setting methodology. But with 5 budget-neutral, which to me is extremely 6 challenging to think that that is plausible. 7 I know some of you spoke about it in 8 your testimony. I just wonder, from your 9 perspective, to the point that my colleague 10 Chairman Benedetto raised, at the end of the 11 day, in order to make up for the years of 12 shortfall to the students you serve, is there 13 a way to redo the rates that is 14 budget-neutral, in your opinion? Like 15 Dr. Kappen, I'm asking you particularly. 16 DR. KAPPEN: For the 4201 schools, 17 we're not under the rate-setting methodology. 18 SENATOR MAYER: Oh, yes. 19 DR. KAPPEN: We have a different 20 formula for us. So it would probably be more 21 for 853s. 22 SENATOR MAYER: Yes, I apologize, 23 you're right. 24 DR. PLACKE: Yes, that's a very good 433 1 question. 2 Essentially, this is going to have to 3 be reimagined. We're going to need to start 4 from ground zero. When I worked for SED, 5 that was the focus; this was only going to be 6 a temporary methodology. And now, 20 years 7 later, obviously we're in the same place. 8 So my thought is that the community 9 has to be involved, the providers need to 10 provide feedback in regard to what it's going 11 to look like. So absolutely, I believe 12 that -- I have great faith that we can do 13 this. 14 The only issue is going to be it's 15 State Ed time, so it may be three or four 16 years down the road before we have a final 17 decision and a final methodology, and in the 18 meantime we have -- our schools are in fiscal 19 peril. So that's where the COLAs come in 20 that need to be provided to us on a regular 21 basis. 22 But I do have faith, Shelley, that we 23 can make some progress. I think we have some 24 really good thinkers out in the community 434 1 working that can provide that type of 2 feedback. 3 SENATOR MAYER: Ms. Levine, do you 4 want to comment on that? 5 MS. LEVINE: I believe we need 6 increased investments in preschool special 7 education programs and state-approved 8 nonpublic schools for students with 9 disabilities, after so many years of 10 underinvestment, and need to ensure that 11 these programs have the teachers and service 12 providers and programs they need and that we 13 need the flexibility to explore methodologies 14 that are going to work for students and 15 provide them with the programs they need, and 16 that will likely cost additional funding. 17 SENATOR MAYER: Great. Question: I 18 recall over the years, having fought some of 19 these battles with you, that you train 20 teachers to do the special work of your 21 schools, and you lose them to the public 22 school system, where they are paid 23 substantially more. 24 Does that continue to be a serious 435 1 problem? And do you have a solution to 2 address it? 3 DR. KAPPEN: Definitely it's a serious 4 problem. You know, we get a teacher that is 5 certified in whatever their area is, and then 6 we need to work with them to learn more about 7 the children, and they become highly 8 qualified. 9 I think for us we need to, for the 10 4201 schools, have some kind of increase to 11 our budget to be able to change the salary 12 scales for the teachers. 13 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 Assemblywoman Simon. 17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. 18 Thank you for your testimony. 19 Do you have an opinion on this issue 20 about set aside the money from Foundation 21 Aid -- which may not affect you as much, 22 number one, but it would likely affect your 23 clients. 24 And then the other question is there's 436 1 a problem with the teacher shortage, there's 2 a problem with recruiting teachers, for a 3 host of reasons. Are there particular steps 4 that you think we should take when it comes 5 to recruiting teachers for the students that 6 you teach where we can create some 7 programmatic way of enticing people to work 8 in that field so that they will be able to be 9 the kind of teacher, you know, workforce that 10 you need? 11 DR. KAPPEN: I would say for -- the 12 teacher recruitment is really for people to 13 have a better understanding. And I think we 14 can recruit people in more easily if they 15 know their salary's going to be equitable to 16 other people. 17 I think another drawback for 18 teachers -- and not just our specialized 19 teachers -- but it costs a lot of money, 20 first of all, to go through school to be 21 certified as a teacher and then to go through 22 all of the hoops that are required to get 23 certification through the state is very 24 expensive. And I think that's a drawback 437 1 sometimes to people. 2 And I know that, you know, we're not 3 looking to, you know, make things easier, but 4 I think if we're going to attract people in, 5 these are barriers for people oftentimes. 6 And sometimes for people with 7 disabilities that want to be teachers, just 8 the accessibility is a problem. I mean, I've 9 heard that from teachers -- from blind 10 individuals who want to be teachers. And 11 it's also an issue with the schools for the 12 deaf, I hear that as well, that sometimes the 13 accessibility for the tests, not great. So 14 then people are discouraged and they back 15 away. 16 DR. PLACKE: We've taken a little bit 17 of a different approach within the 853s. 18 We're looking to grow our own teachers. We 19 have a number of paraprofessionals who are 20 very interested and skilled, and we're 21 providing support for them to pursue their 22 bachelor's degree. Of course we have to do 23 fundraising in order to do that, but that's 24 worked out fairly well. 438 1 But regrettably, I have a teaching 2 assistant teaching algebra in a living 3 environment, and I'm not sure anybody who has 4 a child here would want their child being 5 taught by a teaching assistant. But 6 regrettably, we are really desperate at this 7 point. The pipeline to the 853s has really 8 dried up. 9 MS. LEVINE: And on your first 10 question, we support high-impact reading 11 intervention, we know that we hear from so 12 many families who want it for their children. 13 We would prefer to see that happen outside of 14 a Foundation Aid set-aside. 15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Jim 18 Tedisco. 19 SENATOR TEDISCO: Yes. Director 20 Levine, you had a series of important issues 21 you requested funding for. What was the 22 total -- I know there were several of those. 23 What was the total amount when you added all 24 that up, that you thought was necessary? One 439 1 was 100 million or -- 2 MS. LEVINE: Yeah, we are talking 3 about several recommendations where there is 4 funding in the Executive Budget proposal, and 5 then a couple of areas where we'd like to see 6 additional funding. 7 So for English language learners, our 8 written testimony has a few additional 9 recommendations, and we're looking there for 10 several million dollars. And then for a 11 large investment of $100 million in 12 school-based mental health and behavioral 13 supports. 14 SENATOR TEDISCO: So the total was how 15 much? 16 MS. LEVINE: I'd have to double-check 17 our written testimony to make sure that 18 I'm including everything -- 19 SENATOR TEDISCO: In the range of. 20 MS. LEVINE: But approximately 21 $107 million. 22 SENATOR TEDISCO: A hundred and seven 23 million dollars. 24 Did you speak of some methodology that 440 1 might help, did I hear that in terms of 2 getting that number? 3 MS. LEVINE: So the Governor's budget 4 proposal includes $2.5 million for -- to 5 study tuition rate methodologies for 6 preschool special education programs and 7 state-approved nonpublic schools for students 8 with disabilities, and we do think that that 9 would help. But unfortunately it would 10 require the recommendations to be 11 cost-neutral, and we think that that 12 restriction must be lifted. 13 SENATOR TEDISCO: So we could pick up 14 the funding for this from -- from where now? 15 The study was -- I didn't quite get what you 16 said there. 17 MS. LEVINE: This is an Executive 18 Budget proposal. So within the Executive 19 Budget, the Governor is proposing 20 $2.5 million for a study. 21 SENATOR TEDISCO: Okay. And how does 22 that check with the funding you just talked 23 about, a hundred and -- 24 MS. LEVINE: So the study is 441 1 specifically to look at the methodologies for 2 preschool special education programs for 3 preschoolers with disabilities, and for 4 state-approved nonpublic schools for students 5 with disabilities. And so it is for a 6 particular subset of our recommendations. 7 SENATOR TEDISCO: So we'd have to find 8 that from someplace else, the 107 million? 9 MS. LEVINE: No, the $2.5 million is 10 in the Executive Budget proposal. 11 SENATOR TEDISCO: Okay. But it's not 12 being used for the -- in the area you're 13 concerned about? 14 MS. LEVINE: Well, this is a proposal. 15 So -- 16 SENATOR TEDISCO: An addition of 17 money. 18 MS. LEVINE: The Governor has included 19 in her Executive Budget proposal $2.5 million 20 for this study. 21 SENATOR TEDISCO: And I -- so what do 22 we need this 107 million if it's already in 23 the budget? 24 DR. KAPPEN: I think it's the first 442 1 time that it's been proposed in the budget 2 for the study. I think as we were saying for 3 the 853s, that they've been talking about 4 trouble with the rate-setting for years. So 5 this is probably the Governor's attempt to 6 look at rate-setting for the 2.5. It was 7 never in there before. 8 SENATOR TEDISCO: Thank you. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 We go to Assemblyman Slater. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you, Madam 12 Chair. And I really want to thank the panel. 13 Mr. Placke, as your representative 14 here in the New York State Assembly, welcome. 15 I've been to your campus quite a few times -- 16 not in my first five weeks as your State 17 Assemblyman, but I can attest to the value 18 and importance that Green Chimneys brings to 19 our community and children from all over the 20 region every single day. 21 One of the things that I did want to 22 just touch upon -- and I understand the 23 funding situation that you had explained to 24 us -- reconciliation. I think there has been 443 1 an issue with the reconciliation process for 2 853 schools. I'm just wondering if you can 3 expand upon what that issue is and if there's 4 a solution that you can propose for us to 5 address it. 6 DR. PLACKE: On the school side, it is 7 a real problem. (Using mic.) Again, on the 8 school side, it is a real challenge. It's 9 very difficult as far as payback is 10 concerned, because we get interim rates that 11 are based on our CFRs, and then a year or two 12 later it can be reconciled. And -- 13 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Say it again? Is 14 it a year or two later? 15 DR. PLACKE: It could be a year or two 16 or three it could be reconciled. At that 17 point there could be some payback. So from a 18 cash flow -- and we have very, very tight 19 budgets. And that has been an incredible 20 challenge. 21 But with the interim rates plus the 22 COLA, that has really -- that was helpful 23 last year. That really preserved us. So 24 going forward until the methodology is 444 1 modified, hopefully that will be the train 2 going forward. 3 But as far as the preschool, I will 4 defer to my colleague. 5 MS. LEVINE: I think reconciliation is 6 a problem in both areas, and that is 7 certainly something that we're hoping that 8 the cost study will address. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Great. But 10 I'm -- currently, since it hasn't been 11 addressed, how does that impact your -- I 12 mean, it's an obvious question. How does a 13 three-year delay in reconciliation impact 14 your ability to budget on a year-to-year 15 basis? 16 DR. PLACKE: Regrettably, it's so 17 unpredictable. It is just a real challenge. 18 And when you look at the budget methodology, 19 you have certain tiers you can't go over for 20 operations and for staffing. So it just 21 makes it almost impossible. 22 And there are times, though -- there 23 are times, on reconciliation, the tuition 24 rate is increased. So then you've got to go 445 1 back to the local school district and 2 recharge them, which is a real problem for 3 the local district because they don't have 4 that in their budget -- 5 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Right. 6 DR. PLACKE: -- because those 7 expenditures occurred two years ago. So -- 8 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: So it's really 9 having a broad impact across multiple systems 10 that we really should, as a Legislature, 11 address. 12 DR. PLACKE: Yes, it's a concern with 13 us. 14 Yeah, but in regard to the 15 cost-neutral, that's a no-go. That can't 16 possibly push us forward. And we've had 17 several schools close their doors in the last 18 year, based on fiscal instability. 19 At Green Chimneys, for example, we get 20 a thousand applications a year. And we 21 accept about 40. So we're about as rigorous 22 as Harvard and Yale as far as our acceptance 23 policy. 24 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you very 446 1 much. 2 DR. PLACKE: And so, again, we have a 3 large number of youngsters we cannot 4 incorporate because we can't fund the 5 teachers, we can't fund the therapists and 6 the residential staff. So there are a number 7 of youngsters we should be helping that we 8 can't, regrettably. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 To the Senate. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you very 12 much, Madam Chair. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Robert 14 Jackson. 15 SENATOR JACKSON: First I'd like to 16 thank all three of you for coming in and 17 waiting your turn in order to present on 18 behalf of your schools and your clients that 19 you're representing. 20 I've looked at all three of your 21 statements on our website, and let me just 22 say that I clearly support what you're asking 23 for. I say to you that I know the issue of 24 children with disabilities, I've worked with 447 1 that as an advocate in education. My 2 brother-in-law and sister-in-law are visually 3 impaired, but they're technically totally 4 blind now as a result of retinitis 5 pigmentosa. And my brother-in-law, I brought 6 him here when he was about 19, and he went to 7 the Lighthouse and got training there and got 8 his GED and went on and got his associate's, 9 a bachelor's and a master's degree, and he's 10 been a licensed social worker in the State of 11 New York for about 17 years. 12 So -- and that's because there were 13 organizations and people to help him in order 14 to get the type of education and training 15 that he needs. 16 So I appreciate all of you, what 17 you're doing. And Randi, I was listening to 18 you read your statement, and you were reading 19 with such speed and clarity -- and clarity -- 20 and finished exactly at two minutes. And I 21 said, gee whiz, how many times did you 22 practice that? 23 But clearly the points that you're 24 making in there are extremely important and 448 1 part of the many things that I'm advocating 2 for in legislation, and you know that. 3 So I thank you, all three of you, for 4 being very clear about what your needs are, 5 and hopefully we, the legislative bodies of 6 the Assembly and Senate, will come together 7 and move forward on your requests. I just 8 wanted to thank you. 9 Thank you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 Assembly. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 13 Manktelow. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you, 15 Madam Chair. 16 Dr. Kappen, you spoke earlier about 17 fund balance. Did I hear you right that 18 you're not allowed to have a fund balance at 19 this point? 20 DR. KAPPEN: Right now, no, we don't 21 have any fund balances, no. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So when 23 something happens -- you know, we went 24 through COVID; let's say tomorrow one of the 449 1 schools has a major issue. Where do you get 2 that money from? 3 DR. KAPPEN: If people didn't have any 4 other resources on their own, they would have 5 to get it from their credit line to be able 6 to do it. So, you know, that's a problem. 7 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So then you 8 have to budget long-term for that credit 9 line, I'm sure. 10 DR. KAPPEN: Correct, right. 11 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So what can we 12 do here to help you get a -- have the ability 13 to get a fund balance? And my second 14 question is if we can do that, how can we 15 help you build that fund balance? 16 DR. KAPPEN: Last year we were really 17 so happy that Assemblyman Benedetto and 18 Senator Mannion circulated a letter for us on 19 behalf of the fund balance. It didn't make 20 it into the budget, but that would be 21 something that if you could support us in 22 that, and within your group to circulate 23 that, and hopefully get the Governor to 24 understand that this is best practice and 450 1 certainly something that the State 2 Comptroller also recommends for 3 organizations, would be really helpful to us. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you for 5 that answer. And I do know that we do know 6 how important you are to the state, and 7 people will realize it when you go away. And 8 we do not want you to go away. It's not fair 9 to the students, the children and the 10 families. 11 So thank you for taking the time to be 12 here. 13 DR. KAPPEN: Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So there are no 15 more Senators. We still have a number of 16 Assemblymembers. 17 Assemblyman Otis is next. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you, Chairs. 19 And thank you for your testimony. 20 A question related to Bernadette and 21 Ed for the 4201s and the 853s. It's a long 22 story about the financial jeopardy that these 23 schools are in. And, Ed, you were just 24 sharing how many we've lost even in recent 451 1 years. 2 So my question is, what is the best 3 way to communicate school by school the level 4 of financial challenge that they are facing? 5 Is there something the two associations could 6 do to have the schools pull together that 7 information so that DOB has it, so that SED 8 has it, so that the Legislature has it, to 9 help us build the case for some kind of -- 10 what I think is necessary is direct support 11 to put all of your financial houses in order. 12 DR. PLACKE: As a former 13 superintendent of a Special Act, 14 Greenburgh-North Castle in Dobbs Ferry, we 15 annually had a process or a coalition put 16 together to provide that information. I 17 mean, at one point I had a $22 million budget 18 with a $7 million deficit, so we were really 19 on the edge of closing our doors, 20 regrettably. 21 But we did have a system, and the 22 state was fairly responsive. And obviously 23 our ask was to redo the tuition methodology 24 to help, and also look at a fund balance. So 452 1 that's something -- the 853s, we haven't gone 2 that route yet, but I think we need to do 3 that, to use that same methodology. 4 DR. KAPPEN: In the 4201 group, we 5 have been, you know, talking about our 6 funding also and gathering information that 7 we are able to share, hopefully with SED as 8 well as the Department of Budget, also, that 9 they have a better understanding of our 10 needs. 11 And I think that is the only way, is 12 by talking and sharing information. And I 13 think for people also to see who it is we're 14 talking about. You know? I think that's a 15 problem, often, when you don't see the faces 16 of these children. I mean, and some of them 17 have very significant issues. I mean, they 18 may be blind, but they have other issues. 19 Deaf, other issues. 20 And I think it's costly to support 21 these children, but they deserve it. No one 22 can put a dollar sign on what someone's 23 quality of life should be or how, you know, 24 we should think this one's more worthy than 453 1 the other -- that we need to advocate for the 2 children and their family. 3 And they will be successful. I can 4 say at our school, whatever money we get, we 5 have 100 percent graduation rate. So the 6 children will go on to college or some other 7 kind of work. That's not true for every 8 school, because some of the other children 9 have more significant needs. But they're 10 more independent to take their place in the 11 group home, in the home. Even if they can go 12 to church with their parent, that's a relief 13 for the child. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you. I just 15 have 7 seconds left, and what I want to say 16 is that I think that we have to think beyond 17 the methodology, per-student methodology, and 18 get you a funding stream to deal with the 19 stability issue. Thank you. 20 DR. PLACKE: And if I could just 21 mention, I think -- 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Sorry. Time's 23 up. You can have a conversation with 24 Mr. Otis offline. 454 1 Assemblywoman Jackson. 2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: I'll allow you 3 to use my time to mention it. Go ahead. 4 DR. PLACKE: Again, if there's one 5 takeaway today, I think it's important, even 6 though we're talking about our most 7 vulnerable part of the population, there is 8 such hope for this particular group. When 9 you look at the employment rate of people 10 with disabilities in New York State, it's 11 abysmal. Again, depending on what you look 12 at, it could be anywhere from 70, 75 percent 13 of people with disabilities are not working. 14 And if you think about yourself, when 15 someone asks you "What do you do," you've 16 always described yourself based on your work. 17 You ask most people with disabilities "What 18 do you do," they don't have an answer. 19 Because we define ourselves by the way we 20 work. 21 But if you can just walk away today 22 remembering these are public school students. 23 They are public school students whose 24 families live in our community, and often we 455 1 don't view them in those terms. So that's 2 something -- 3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you for 4 that. And I want to say thank you for 5 bringing students up here. They taught me 6 some sign language while here. So thank you 7 for bringing them. 8 The 30 million over three years, 9 Dr. Kappen, you mentioned, does that help 10 with expansion of any sort or is it just to 11 survive to get through the next three years? 12 I know students are traveling really far to 13 get to these schools because they're so 14 limited. So can you talk to me about what 15 the 30 million over three years, what that 16 looks like? 17 DR. KAPPEN: I think that would 18 definitely be a good jump-start for us to get 19 going. And then I think we'd also then need 20 to make sure we get support ongoing to be 21 able to maintain those increases for people 22 as we go forward. 23 But we'd have to look at redoing our, 24 you know, salary scales to make sure that 456 1 they would be more in line. We're not, I 2 think, naive enough to think we're going to 3 be 100 percent aligned, but the gap should be 4 less, you know. And I think that's what 5 we're aiming for. 6 SENATOR JACKSON: Are there any 7 thoughts from all three of you around how we 8 can get more people into staffing? So you 9 said you need therapists, staff and other 10 aides. What can we do? 11 DR. KAPPEN: I would agree -- I mean, 12 we've been trying also -- we have some really 13 wonderful teacher assistants as well, that 14 have been with us for a long time. So we try 15 to support them to join and be a teacher in 16 the future. 17 We also have been trying to work with 18 two of the schools in the city that provide 19 teacher training, to get people to come and 20 do internships, student teaching, so that 21 they can maybe like what we do. 22 And as I said, again, the drawback 23 there is if we can't compete with the DOE, 24 people are going to go to the DOE. I think 457 1 that's really what holds us back in that 2 area. Because once they come with us -- and 3 in our situation, we have people that have 4 been with us for a long time. That's not 5 going to keep happening if people aren't 6 adequately paid and they live in New York 7 City. 8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you. 9 DR. PLACKE: Yeah, the only other 10 recommendation I would have, we need to 11 develop pipelines to our high schools as far 12 as young folks getting interested in the 13 beauty of teaching. 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN JACKSON: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Time. 16 So next, Assemblyman Smith. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you. 18 And actually, my colleagues covered a 19 lot of what I wanted to ask you. But I did 20 want to just take a moment and just say thank 21 you for the work that your schools are doing. 22 In my opinion, it's a cost savings to invest 23 in these schools because if individual 24 districts had to try to provide that, they're 458 1 just not able to do that. 2 So the work that you're doing -- and I 3 think I echo Chairman Benedetto's feelings on 4 this, that I think we all want to prioritize 5 this. And you are helping us deliver free 6 and appropriate public education in the least 7 restrictive environment. So thank you for 8 your work. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 There are no other questions, so again, on 11 behalf of all the panelists, thank you for 12 what you do. 13 DR. KAPPEN: Thank you. 14 DR. PLACKE: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We still have 16 25 witnesses, so -- the day goes on. 17 Panel D, New York State Council of 18 School Superintendents, New York State School 19 Boards Association, BOCES of New York State, 20 Rural Schools Association of New York, 21 New York State Parent Teacher Association. 22 And again, the next panel, Panel E -- 23 New York Library Association, New York 24 Association for Public Transportation, 459 1 New York School Bus Contractors Association, 2 New York State Association for Computers and 3 Technology in Education, and New York State 4 Community Schools Network -- if those panel 5 members can make their way towards the front 6 of the hearing room. 7 MR. LOWRY: Good afternoon. Thank you 8 for this opportunity to testify today. I'm 9 Robert Lowry, deputy director of the New York 10 State Council of School Superintendents. 11 We're grateful to Governor Hochul for 12 following through and fully funding 13 Foundation Aid and funding expense-based aids 14 according to current law formulas. But we 15 know it's been your resolve that has been 16 crucial in allowing us to reach this point in 17 defending the formula and pursuing its 18 funding. So thank you. 19 Before providing some reactions to 20 some of the Governor's proposals, I'd like to 21 give context. My organization has done 22 surveys of superintendents over the years. 23 In this last survey there were really two 24 major themes that emerged. One is that 460 1 schools are doing many more things to help 2 children and families with concerns, things 3 like non-academic concerns -- things like 4 childcare, healthcare, mental health 5 services, after-school care, and so forth. 6 Another is that the infusions of state 7 and federal money have made a big difference. 8 For example, 82 percent of superintendents 9 said this year that their budget will improve 10 student mental health services; 79 percent 11 said it will improve extra academic help. 12 The majority said it would improve core 13 instruction at every level. Prior to last 14 year, only twice had a majority of 15 superintendents said their budget would 16 improve any area of student services. 17 On Foundation Aid, we have three 18 requests. One, yes, do follow through and 19 fully fund the formula. Second, please 20 expand upon the 3 percent minimum increase 21 that the Governor proposed. Eighty percent 22 of the districts getting the minimum are 23 average or high-need, and all of them 24 struggle to raise pay, to fill essential 461 1 jobs, and live within the property tax cap. 2 Third, start a commencement process to 3 build consensus on steps needed to update and 4 improve the formula. We've repeatedly called 5 it an underappreciated accomplishment in 6 policy, but it's more than a decade old. 7 Some factors do need to be reconsidered. 8 With lower inflation and without 9 further change in the formula, future 10 increases will moderate considerably. Also, 11 the federal COVID relief aid will expire next 12 year, so there is concern about 13 sustainability of improvements. So we 14 support an increase in the unrestricted fund 15 balance limit, at least on a temporary basis. 16 We oppose the proposed requirement to 17 have districts set aside funding for 18 high-impact tutoring. Districts have been 19 putting money into extra academic help, 20 partly by choice and partly because it was 21 required by the federal COVID relief aid. 22 And districts in some cases have struggled to 23 find people to do the work. 24 Also, the set-aside could preclude 462 1 districts from addressing other priorities 2 like improving student mental health 3 services, offering competitive pay, or 4 holding down property tax increases. 5 We support increases in funding for 6 CTE, steps to try and address hiring 7 shortages, and we appreciate the efforts that 8 the department has made to simplify teacher 9 certification processes. 10 I will stop there, but I look forward 11 to your questions. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 13 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: Thank you. I am 14 Kyle Belokopitsky, executive director of the 15 New York State Parent Teacher Association, 16 and I'm proud to represent our 220,000 17 members and our 2.6 million school children. 18 It is our mission to make every 19 child's potential a reality, supporting kids, 20 raising awareness with one voice. On behalf 21 of our president Helen Hoffman, thank you to 22 the chairs and members of the Legislature and 23 Governor Hochul for everything that you do 24 for our children and families. 463 1 We continue to watch in awe as 2 dedicated, outstanding educators, 3 school-related professionals and staff, and 4 families do all they can to support our 5 children each and every day in our school 6 buildings and homes. But while our children 7 learn and our educators teach and support, 8 they still struggle, and that's why we need 9 your continued support and partnership. 10 Today I will speak on two main policy 11 issues, school meals for all and school-based 12 mental health, and briefly mention our 13 opposition to charter school expansion. 14 Each and every week a family member 15 calls our office asking for help in feeding 16 their child. They don't understand why free 17 school meals are no longer provided. And to 18 be honest, we don't either. 19 My son came home from his small, poor 20 rural school just across the river and asked 21 me a pointed question. He said: "Mom, are 22 you still working on helping my friends eat 23 in school? Some of them, they really need 24 help." I looked at him with tears in his 464 1 eyes that day, and tears in my eyes, and I 2 said "Yes, Jackson, we won't give up." 3 When our children went back to school 4 on September 7th, 726,000 of them lost meals 5 that day. No parent, no family, no educator, 6 and I know none of you want to have hungry 7 children. But that is what's happening. For 8 some schools, it's the only place they 9 receive a warm meal. And Congress has failed 10 to act, so we in New York State must do what 11 we always do -- we support our children and 12 we support our families. 13 Hungry kids can't learn. They 14 struggle to focus, they have lower 15 attendance, they are at greater risk for 16 mental and physical health problems, and a 17 family of four making just $51,400 is 18 over-income for a free school meal. We 19 humbly ask that you include this proposal in 20 your one-house. 21 We also call on your help for securing 22 more support for school-based mental health 23 services. The Executive Budget includes 24 $10 million for expansion of school-based 465 1 mental health support and many 2 community-based services. We support them 3 all. But that $10 million number is a bit 4 too low. In a recent survey of New York 5 State PTA members, we were asked which 6 youth-based mental health issues are most 7 important facing our kids. You can imagine: 8 Anxiety, depression, bullying, suicidal 9 ideations and thoughts. 10 To address this crisis, New York State 11 PTA is impaneling a new mental health task 12 force to continue our work in this. But 13 again, we look for your partnership in this 14 work. 15 In conclusion, every family has a 16 dream for their children. It's our job to be 17 dreammakers, ensuring every child, as Bob 18 Lowry has already said, no matter their zip 19 code, no matter their ethnicity, their 20 ability, their gender identity expression or 21 race, has the highest-quality 21st-century 22 education to lead them to college and 23 success. 24 We ask that you humbly continue to 466 1 infuse our schools with the resources 2 necessary, and together we can support kids 3 and raise awareness. There is no other job 4 that is more important. 5 Thank you so much. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 7 Next? 8 MR. FESSLER: Good afternoon. I'm 9 Brian Fessler with the State School Boards 10 Association, and I thank you for having us 11 here today. 12 First and most importantly, I want to 13 thank you sincerely for your commitment to 14 fully funding Foundation Aid, and we're 15 incredibly pleased to see the Executive 16 maintain that commitment. 17 This historic funding is critical to 18 meet the day-to-day responsibilities of our 19 schools, but I think it also represents a 20 significant policy success for the State of 21 New York. 22 But we're here to offer our thoughts 23 on how the Executive Budget might be 24 improved. So as such we do want to note, as 467 1 Bob noted, that nearly 250 districts are held 2 to the proposed minimum increase of just 3 3 percent in Foundation Aid. Those 4 districts, as Bob noted, are mostly high- and 5 average-need with limited local taxing 6 authority, while also facing high inflation 7 and a restrictive property tax cap. 8 Now, we think that minimum increase 9 should be higher, perhaps with a tiered 10 approach for high-need, low-wealth districts. 11 We also believe strongly that a plan and a 12 process needs to be put in place for the 13 future of Foundation Aid. We care less at 14 this point about what the end result will 15 look like, although we certainly do have our 16 ideas. But we are most interested in the 17 groundwork being laid for a thoughtful and 18 deliberative process, which we think should 19 be organized by the State Education 20 Department. 21 Now, we do have concerns with some 22 proposals, including the proposal to extend 23 the unnecessary and duplicative school-level 24 budget reporting requirement. This was 468 1 originally sought by the previous executive, 2 despite federal provisions already requiring 3 school-based expenditure reporting. The 4 state's requirement did not provide enough 5 value to exceed the administrative burden 6 then, and it does not now. So we ask that 7 you reject the proposed five-year extension 8 of that mandate. 9 We are hopeful universal school meals 10 is seriously considered in negotiations over 11 the next few weeks, and we're also hopeful 12 that the BOCES aidable salary cap and special 13 services aid CTE investment reforms are 14 finally made, as they are well overdue. 15 We further ask that you at a minimum 16 restore the $20 million in annual funding for 17 prior-year aid claims. These are school 18 district claims for school aid that have been 19 approved by the state but are waiting for 20 funds to be provided, sometimes for upwards 21 of 10 or more years. The state eliminated 22 funding during the pandemic in 2021, and it 23 should be restored. 24 Lastly, as Bob noted, we encourage 469 1 action to allow for a modest bump to the 2 allowable fund balance limit. Currently 3 districts are allowed to carry a very small 4 4 percent of their operating budget, well 5 below recommendations from fiscal 6 professionals and the Executive's 15 percent 7 rainy day fund goal for the state. A modest 8 increase is appropriate and fiscally prudent, 9 especially as we approach a potential funding 10 cliff with the expiration of federal stimulus 11 funding. 12 I thank you for your steadfast 13 support, and we look forward to our continued 14 work together on behalf of our 673 member 15 school boards. 16 Thank you. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 18 MR. WHITE: Thanks, Brian. 19 Dan White, district superintendent, 20 Monroe 1 BOCES. It's great to see all of 21 you. Happy to represent the 37 BOCES in 22 New York State, our 700 -- 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We can't hear 24 you. 470 1 MR. WHITE: I'm sorry, 700 member 2 districts. Thank you. 3 I'll be very brief, in the interests 4 of time. Most of what we have in our written 5 testimony -- which you have -- has been 6 presented to you already today. I would 7 highlight a couple of things. 8 We do have some recommendations to 9 address some critical workforce shortages, 10 both in mental health and in the education 11 environment, and I ask you to take a look at 12 those. 13 As my colleague from NYSSBA mentioned, 14 we are again talking about the aidability for 15 career and technical education for BOCES and 16 the Big 5. This body has supported that for 17 the better part of a decade. 18 We understand there's grant money in 19 the Executive Budget that's about 20 $10 million, and that's wonderful. That does 21 not raise all boats, however, for school 22 districts and BOCES that provide career and 23 technical education. We think it's a 24 necessary form in time to come. 471 1 Finally, we are very supportive of 2 continuing the full funding of free and 3 reduced lunch for students. We've seen the 4 impact, I think, in every corner of the 5 state. And again, I know that's been 6 presented to you quite often today, so I'm 7 going to stop and turn it over to my 8 colleague. 9 Thank you. 10 MR. LITTLE: You may have to reset the 11 clock. 12 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yeah. 13 MR. LITTLE: Hi, I'm Dave Little from 14 Rural Schools. I'll just touch on a couple 15 of issues, as opposed to the many that are 16 listed in our written testimony. 17 The first -- in all of the praise for 18 fully funding Foundation Aid, I would simply 19 say that you can't simultaneously claim to 20 have accomplished that if you allow the use 21 of directed categorical funds to be part of 22 that. It's not Foundation Aid if you tell us 23 how to use it. And so we would ask that you 24 figure out one way or the other when you're 472 1 doing that. 2 The other is the impact of full 3 funding. Several of my colleagues have 4 mentioned that the implication of fully 5 funding the last segment of this is that many 6 wealthy districts are finally getting the 7 money that has been owed them the longest, 8 because you wisely chose to give money to the 9 districts that needed it the most and had the 10 most in the beginning of the process. And so 11 we see there's one Westchester district that 12 is getting a 52 percent increase this year, 13 while high-need rural districts, at least 14 half of them are getting the minimum 15 3 percent increase. 16 So we see that by category, the 17 wealthiest districts are getting the lion's 18 share of this year's agreement. High-need 19 rural districts are getting the least amount. 20 Which leads me to what happens next, 21 what happens after next year. And unless you 22 do the kind of work that my colleagues have 23 suggested starting now, to figure out what 24 the appropriate measures are for funding 473 1 Foundation Aid in the future, by default 2 you're going to end up giving school 3 districts an across-the-board allocation, 4 which is the singularly most inequitable way 5 that you could possibly fund Foundation Aid 6 moving forward. 7 So I would ask you to do the hard work 8 of figuring out what it takes to uphold your 9 constitutional responsibility of providing a 10 sound, basic education -- and once you've 11 done that, to implement that, to upgrade it. 12 I mentioned that we're at a juncture 13 in history with fully funding Foundation Aid, 14 having federal funds expire, coming out of 15 the pandemic. It's a very unique time. And 16 so in my book, it's time to finally learn 17 what all of our colleagues in sister states 18 all around New York have known for two 19 generations, and that's that you allow rural 20 high school students to go to a regional high 21 school and get the kind of broad-based 22 curriculum, advanced curriculum, that's 23 provided as simply matter-of-factly to urban 24 and suburban students. 474 1 All of our rural kids graduate. 2 Three-quarters of them never get an advanced 3 degree beyond that. And that's abhorrent to 4 the future of New York if it's going to be 5 successful. So with that, I'll stop with 6 10 seconds to go. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 8 We go to Assemblyman Benedetto. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Yes, okay. 10 (Mic issues.) Okay. Okay. 11 (Laughter.) 12 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: One day I will 13 get the knack of that. 14 Listen, thank you very much. Your 15 points were all well taken. Okay? And yeah, 16 we're throwing out a lot of money out there, 17 and Foundation Aid is going to be up and 18 everybody's going to get a 3 percent, you 19 know, increase no matter what. But you 20 indicated maybe 3 percent is not enough, and 21 maybe it should be -- should be more. 22 Any idea how much more you're talking 23 about, 4 or 5 percent? And do you have a 24 cost estimate, possibly, on what that might 475 1 be? 2 MR. LOWRY: I believe that the current 3 3 percent minimum that the Governor proposed 4 costs $51 million. You could do some sort of 5 scaled increase tied to district wealth, so 6 poorer districts would get a larger increase. 7 But if 3 percent across the board is 8 $50 million, you know, an additional 2 or 9 3 percent, particularly if it's scaled, it's 10 going to cost -- you know, scale based on 11 district ability to raise local revenues -- 12 it's going to cost less than $50 million 13 additional. That's like 0.2 percent of total 14 Foundation Aid at this point. So it's not a 15 large price tag to deal with this. 16 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: And the meals, 17 okay, we all want our kids properly fed and 18 so on. And we're a little annoyed the feds 19 have withdrawn their money and kind of left 20 us with the -- you know, if we're going to do 21 it, how much do you think it's going to cost 22 us? 23 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: Sure. So initial 24 estimates for school-based breakfast and 476 1 lunch range a little bit above $200 million. 2 So it's not -- it's -- but, you know, at the 3 end of the day is it a price tag worth paying 4 if our children are not hungry and they are 5 well fed? And I know you agree with that as 6 a lifelong educator. 7 ASSEMBLYMAN BENEDETTO: Point well 8 taken. Thank you very much. 9 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: You're welcome. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Shelley 12 Mayer. 13 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. Good to 14 see you all. 15 I just want to check. On the proposal 16 that SED has -- it was not included in the 17 Governor's proposed budget -- of $1 million 18 to begin the process of exploring a new 19 Foundation Aid formula, can you each tell me 20 whether you support that proposal? 21 MR. LOWRY: I'm not sure exactly what 22 the department would use the money for. But 23 I do believe that the department should have 24 greater capacity to do work, research, 477 1 contribute research, sponsor it, on education 2 finance. 3 Fifteen, 20 years ago I think they 4 made pivotal contributions in developing what 5 became the Foundation Aid formula. It was 6 essentially a Regents proposal, with one 7 wrinkle added by Governor Spitzer and others 8 added by the Legislature. So I agree with 9 Brian, we think that the Education Department 10 should be leading this work, and I do believe 11 that they do need some additional resources 12 to do that. 13 SENATOR MAYER: Anyone want to add? 14 MR. LITTLE: The only thing I would 15 add is you've got the world's utmost expert 16 sitting behind us up here, so when he gets up 17 here, ask him that question. 18 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: And, Senator Mayer, 19 all of the Educational Conference Board 20 groups do support SED in leading this work. 21 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. That's question 22 one. 23 Question two, with respect to meals. 24 Are there districts that are eligible for 478 1 community eligibility currently that are not 2 participating? And if so, what can we do to 3 get them to participate and get federal 4 funding for this lunch program outside of the 5 money we were unable to get from Congress? 6 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: The answer to that 7 question is yes. And I'm going to defer the 8 technicalities to my colleagues who are 9 coming up on our school nutrition panel just 10 in a few. 11 Some of the difficulties that 12 districts have is coming up with their side 13 of the purchase of the district-based cost 14 for community eligibility. But I know Hunger 15 Solutions and some of our colleagues that are 16 working on this very closely will be able to 17 answer your question more thoroughly. 18 MR. LITTLE: The only other thing I'd 19 add, Senator, is that part of the problem is 20 social and outside the capacity of the school 21 to try and get people to sign up. Part of 22 the inequity is the hesitation of families to 23 sign up, a fear of signing up for that 24 program. And it's traditionally 479 1 underreported and under -- 2 SENATOR MAYER: Well, that -- just 3 respectfully, that's free and reduced lunch. 4 I'm not talking about that. I'm talking 5 about community eligibility where the entire 6 school is eligible -- 7 MR. LITTLE: For the whole school. 8 SENATOR MAYER: -- which is -- so I 9 will be glad to ask the next panel. 10 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: And if you ask 11 Jessica that, she's coming up, she will 12 absolutely have those figures for you. 13 SENATOR MAYER: Yes. I'll be glad to. 14 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: I'm going to put 15 her on the spot right now. 16 SENATOR MAYER: And I wonder if 17 statewide -- only because we've heard this 18 anecdotally. Do you know from the 19 superintendents or the boards whether there's 20 been an overall reduction in the number of 21 students in New York's public schools that 22 are either members of NYSCSS or the school 23 boards? During the COVID time -- we reduced 24 the number of students in our districts, 480 1 pupils in your districts as a result of 2 COVID. There has been loss in some 3 districts. I'm just wondering if you have 4 noticed that at a statewide level. 5 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: I don't think so. 6 MR. FESSLER: You're talking about 7 general enrollment? 8 SENATOR MAYER: Yes, general 9 enrollment. 10 MR. FESSLER: Yeah, I think, you know, 11 in certain pockets -- I know New York City, 12 for example, has cited some figures. 13 In certain pockets I think there's 14 been more meaningful movement in terms of 15 enrollment than pre-pandemic. But I think in 16 the aggregate, just based on, you know, 17 recent updated data, I haven't personally 18 noticed any significant movement away from 19 pre-pandemic enrollment trends. 20 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: And we haven't 21 either. It's been hovering around 22 2.6 million children. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 24 We move on to Assemblyman Smith. 481 1 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Thank you. 2 And thank you so much for the advocacy 3 on the school meals program, because I think 4 we all share that concern that students need 5 to eat so that they can be energized and 6 focused to learn. And it's a productive 7 thing, and we know so many of our families, 8 you know, need that assistance. 9 Now, something that you just said 10 about the stigma that's associated with it, I 11 think that's a concern. But also the amount 12 of families that are too proud to sign up -- 13 and I know that's definitely impacted the 14 ability for local school districts to get 15 that funding. So, you know, I'm hopeful that 16 we could work with our federal partners. 17 But what additional -- what else do 18 you think we could do to assist if -- you 19 know, again, we're going to -- I think many 20 of us are going to try to advocate for that. 21 It's a lot of money to, you know, try to get. 22 But what -- what additional can we do to help 23 feed our kids? 24 MR. WHITE: Yeah, I think that the 482 1 fact of the matter is is that when school 2 districts already subsidize their school 3 lunch programs significantly, it puts 4 additional burdens on parts of the district. 5 So schools and localities find solutions; 6 some of them are not always the best 7 solutions to that. 8 And to be frank with you, this is an 9 emerging and -- it's an existing issue, but 10 it's going to continue to grow significantly. 11 So schools are really subsidizing it 12 themselves in many, many ways. I'm not sure 13 that's the best solution, if you will. 14 Because some can and some can't, frankly. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Oh, right. 16 MR. WHITE: Yes. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: Are you hearing 18 anything about the Farm-to-School program? 19 Because it's something I mentioned earlier in 20 the day, and on Long Island we're having a 21 difficulty because the reimbursement -- 22 again, encouraging schools to get to the 23 level of 30 percent of New York-produced 24 food, which is awesome -- it's tasty, the 483 1 kids want it, and also it's good for our 2 economy here in New York. But there's been 3 some difficulty to do that. 4 Have you heard any thoughts about that 5 from the member districts? I know it's a 6 popular program upstate, but we're still 7 trying to work on it downstate. 8 MR. LITTLE: Yeah, the Farm-to-School 9 program has been tremendously successful 10 where the districts have met the threshold 11 and have the predictability of trying to 12 maintain it from year to year. 13 There's a rather large startup cost in 14 processing and refrigeration and all that 15 stuff, but once you've got it set up -- we 16 have some districts that are in their third 17 and fourth round of that, and they do 18 tremendous things with their community -- 19 farmers' markets to feed kids during the 20 summer, where they combine resources, almost 21 in a community-schools approach to provide 22 for that. So where they're able to do it, 23 they do it very well. 24 But the 30 percent threshold is a 484 1 tough burden both administratively and 2 financially to try and get to. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN SMITH: That's what I'm 4 hearing as well. 5 And last, I'll just conclude, because 6 I think a lot of these issues are solved by 7 universal school meals. Because obviously 8 when district nutrition experts are trying to 9 put together these meals, it's much easier if 10 they don't have to worry about the 11 reimbursement portion and there's federal 12 guidelines on that. 13 Thanks for your advocacy. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 Senator Murray? 16 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you very much. 17 Since we only have three minutes, I'll 18 jump right to it. 19 And I wanted to talk to Superintendent 20 White. Do you have an idea of the average 21 number of hours your BOCES instructors are 22 working? Those that aren't full-time, I 23 mean, some of the instructors. 24 MR. WHITE: So in terms of what's 485 1 their -- what's their normal day, Senator, 2 those are the things? 3 SENATOR MURRAY: Yeah. 4 MR. WHITE: So, 7.5 hours a day, 5 usually. 6 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. I'm just 7 trying to calculate out when we're talking 8 about the instructors and the pay cap and 9 that, and how close it comes to -- we're 10 virtually at minimum wage in some cases. 11 MR. WHITE: Yeah. 12 SENATOR MURRAY: So we've been 13 increasing minimum wage over the years, but 14 we're keeping this cap. It's been there for 15 close to 30 years. 16 MR. WHITE: Thirty years. So the 17 aidability, based upon $30,000, the average 18 BOCES CTE instructor makes about $67,000 a 19 year right now. So if you're talking the 20 average aidability, yes, the state share has 21 been declining for -- since 1993. 22 SENATOR MURRAY: It's ridiculous. And 23 Assemblyman Benedetto apologized before to 24 another group; I'm apologizing because I 486 1 think it's embarrassing that we can't do 2 better than that. Because I feel as 3 though -- and I've heard this from BOCES -- 4 not just getting new instructors, but 5 retaining some of the instructors. But also 6 the expansion of some of the services that 7 are offered and the training that could be 8 offered to some of these kids. 9 How do you get there when your hands 10 are tied like this? Are you seeing -- or how 11 bad is the problem right now, and how much do 12 you need to improve that? 13 MR. WHITE: So I can tell you that our 14 industry partners are continuously coming to 15 us, as they are anybody that runs career and 16 technical educational programs, saying they 17 need a workforce, particularly in some of the 18 high-skilled trades. 19 We have waitlists in a number of our 20 trades programs; that's simply because we 21 can't expand. So the need is very, very 22 real, as it is in many industries, but 23 particularly those heavy, high-tech trades 24 where we are seeing a number of retirees 487 1 leave the industry, and they're not there to 2 replace them. 3 SENATOR MURRAY: That was my next 4 question. Are you seeing an increase in the 5 number of -- or should I say the amount of 6 time the instructors are staying? 7 MR. WHITE: So in terms of the -- 8 SENATOR MURRAY: It's actually a 9 decrease in the amount of time they're 10 staying. 11 MR. WHITE: Yeah. Yes, I think so. 12 Yeah, I would say so. 13 I think that the major piece of this 14 is the ability to replace a workforce from an 15 industry or trade perspective. They're 16 seeing people leave those industries, and 17 they're looking to us to replace those, and 18 we're trying to start that pipeline of 19 students who can do that. 20 SENATOR MURRAY: All right. Okay, 21 well, thanks. Keep up the great work, and 22 hopefully we can give you some more help. 23 Thank you. 24 MR. WHITE: Thank you. Appreciate 488 1 that, thank you. 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 3 Assembly. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 5 Assemblywoman Woerner. 6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you very 7 much. I will -- I'll pick up where -- is 8 this on? I'll pick up where Senator Murray 9 left off. 10 You mentioned that you have, in some 11 areas waitlists, for BOCES. 12 MR. WHITE: We do. 13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Do you have 14 any sense of what your waitlist is or what 15 your unmet demand is for BOCES slots? 16 MR. WHITE: So on average -- it 17 depends upon the program, certainly. Okay, 18 so it's not in every program, but there are 19 some trades programs where they're 20 waitlisted. We're probably running 10 to 21 15 percent on waitlists in some of those 22 programs, which can be significant. 23 And I'm just reflecting on my BOCES. 24 When I'm thinking about my colleagues in the 489 1 37 BOCES around the state, it's probably very 2 similar. 3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: So can you 4 just give me an idea in absolute numbers what 5 10 to 15 percent represents? 6 MR. WHITE: So if I'm looking at, 7 let's say students, you're probably looking 8 at 1500 to 2,000 students that potentially 9 could be waitlisted, yup. 10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: That's a 11 pretty significant number. 12 MR. WHITE: It's significant. And 13 that doesn't include the Big 5 who also -- we 14 advocate as well for that aidability to be 15 adjusted as well, their special services aid. 16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Great, thank 17 you. 18 Dave, on rural schools, in your 19 written testimony you talked about the 20 challenges with the push for electric buses. 21 And I'm wondering if you have any information 22 from any of the rural school districts that 23 you work with about the cost to them of 24 having to replace their -- I assume many of 490 1 them, like the districts I represent, often 2 triple-trip their single bus so that they're 3 running a route for elementary, for middle 4 school, and for senior school. But with the 5 electric buses, my understanding is they 6 won't be able to triple-trip with them 7 because they have to be charged. 8 Have you gotten any sense of what the 9 increased cost is for a rural district to 10 meet the needs of the electrification of 11 buses? 12 MR. LITTLE: Yeah. The backstory joke 13 on the whole thing is you'll have 10 kids on 14 63 passenger buses, because the rest will be 15 batteries, in order to get it around the 16 route that needs to be run everyday in a 17 rural area. 18 We have tremendously large rural 19 districts in some areas, and it's a lot of 20 ground to cover, and a lot of it's up and 21 downhill, which is -- it's tough. 22 The industry, to their credit, says 23 that they can do that. We need, by the time 24 we get to the deadline, to have a market 491 1 rather than a single provider that can do 2 this in order to make buses affordable. And 3 we need a significant contribution from the 4 state for the infrastructure necessary. 5 People aren't talking a lot. They 6 talk some about, well, we'll need to put in 7 the charging stations to be able to do this. 8 Well, if you don't need a fueling depot 9 anymore for your buses, by law you've got to 10 remove it, right? Nobody's talking about 11 what it costs to get rid of the old as we 12 approach the new. 13 So that said, it's a tremendous goal. 14 If you've ever seen a school bus with a line 15 of first-graders waiting to get on it with 16 the tailpipe at their nose level -- it's a 17 good goal, right, but we're going to need 18 help to get there. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very 21 much. 22 Senator John Liu. 23 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 24 Mr. Little, you're happy about the 492 1 final fulfillment of Foundation Aid but 2 you're not so happy that the -- that we're 3 kind of catching up what you call the wealthy 4 districts? 5 MR LITTLE: In the very beginning -- 6 and we have to go back, this is how long this 7 formula has been around, but -- 8 SENATOR LIU: Well, the formula was 9 never fully funded, right? So the state kind 10 of prioritized the high-needs districts 11 first, tried to get them closer to 12 100 percent sooner than the other districts. 13 MR. LITTLE: Yeah. It's just the 14 practical implication of being at the tail 15 end -- 16 SENATOR LIU: Of this one year. 17 MR. LITTLE: -- that you -- right. 18 Right. Which is -- 19 SENATOR LIU: I mean, the wealthy 20 school districts -- 21 MR. LITTLE: -- why I tried to quickly 22 segue into what happens -- 23 (Overtalk.) 24 SENATOR LIU: I don't want to -- I'm 493 1 not defending wealthy school districts, but 2 they will say that their -- the Foundation 3 Aid formula already reflects the fact that 4 they have to contribute a lot more from their 5 own local tax base than they're actually 6 getting from the state. 7 So I would love to get a panel of 8 Mr. Little and some of the superintendents or 9 the leaders of the other districts. 10 But I think what you're getting at is 11 it seems like all of you would like to see at 12 least an update, if not a reformulation, of 13 the Foundation Aid formula. Is that fair to 14 say? 15 MR. LITTLE: As Bob is wont to say, it 16 it's an underappreciated legislative 17 accomplishment, the Foundation Aid formula 18 that exists. It's also more -- you know, 19 close to a generation old at this point. 20 SENATOR LIU: It's like 20 years old. 21 MR. LITTLE: And we've had 22 tremendous -- 23 SENATOR LIU: So you all would like to 24 see a revamp of the Foundation Aid formula. 494 1 MR. LITTLE: It's got to be updated 2 according to current need. 3 SENATOR LIU: Okay. Do all of you 4 expect to have a proportional increase in 5 Foundation Aid if that Foundation Aid formula 6 is rejiggered? 7 MR. LITTLE: If you're saying are we 8 expecting you to rob Peter to pay Paul, like 9 Vermont tried to do -- 10 SENATOR LIU: Well, you know -- 11 MR. LITTLE: -- we would expect to do 12 better than that. 13 SENATOR LIU: Reformulating the 14 Foundation Aid formula doesn't necessarily 15 result in an increase in total 16 Foundation Aid, right? 17 MR. LITTLE: No. You not only have to 18 be poor, but you have to be comparatively 19 poorer than your neighbor in order to be 20 successful under the formula. 21 SENATOR LIU: Right. 22 MR. LITTLE: So not everybody wins. 23 But our approach -- at least I will 24 give you credit this year -- is starting from 495 1 the premise that everyone gets at least what 2 should be, under normal circumstances, an 3 inflationary increase, and then you go from 4 need from there. 5 My guess is that that would be the 6 approach to take going forward, but you have 7 to actually cost out what you value in a 8 child's education moving forward. 9 Per-student count may not count as much as 10 student mental health needs moving forward. 11 Food may count for more than your combined 12 wealth ratio in the future. 13 SENATOR LIU: Sure. So it sounds like 14 you're suggesting -- 15 MR. LITTLE: A different structure -- 16 SENATOR LIU: I don't disagree with 17 you. Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree 18 with you. But it sounds like you're -- you 19 know, and I'm thinking none of your 20 colleagues here necessarily disagree with 21 you -- you're saying, figure out what the 22 need is, based on these updated factors, and 23 then that should determine the amount of 24 Foundation Aid that the state has to cough up 496 1 at this point. 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: That will have to 3 wait for another conversation, Senator Liu. 4 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You can follow up 6 with him afterwards. I think he's available 7 all day. 8 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 9 Assemblyman Otis. 10 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you. 11 For all of you -- and if they don't 12 have -- we don't need full answers today. 13 But curious as to, for the districts you 14 represent, how they are dealing in their 15 budgets with cybersecurity prevention or 16 cybersecurity ransomware response as a 17 budgetary matter. 18 MR. LOWRY: I don't recall the figure, 19 but, you know, in our survey we asked a 20 question: What issues cause you concern in 21 thinking about your district's financial 22 future? Pick all that apply, then pick the 23 one that causes the greatest concern. 24 Special education costs were, you 497 1 know, the number-one cost concern. For some 2 districts -- I don't recall the percentage, 3 I'll look it up, but I was surprised by the 4 percentage of superintendents who said that 5 cybersecurity costs is a concern. And, you 6 know, we include it on the list because 7 anecdotally we had a sense that it was an 8 emerging concern. I'll share the results 9 with you. 10 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you, Bob. 11 MR. WHITE: Member Otis, I will tell 12 you that there are 12 regional information 13 centers around New York State based in Boards 14 of Cooperative Educational Services. It is 15 the single greatest increase in services we 16 have provided to districts, as you would 17 imagine, around the state. 18 And costs come with that, frankly. 19 And the expertise needed to combat some of 20 the threats that are coming to school 21 districts, municipalities, hospitals, et 22 cetera, is significant. It is an emerging 23 budgetary need. It is a present-day service 24 need, to give you a sense. 498 1 Thank you. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you. 3 MR. FESSLER: I think for school board 4 members we have a kind of formal 5 position-setting process, like a lot of 6 organizations, and we had our annual meeting 7 in the fall. And for the first time in the 8 decade that I've been with the School Boards 9 Association, our membership formally directed 10 us to engage in advocacy, seeking the state's 11 support logistically, financially, to address 12 issues of cybersecurity. 13 So from that standpoint, I think, you 14 know, it is high up on their priority list. 15 And a new and emerging issue, as Dan 16 reflected, you know, based on the increase in 17 demand of services that districts are 18 seeking. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you. I'd 20 just say in the budget hearing the other day 21 with Homeland Security and with Technology 22 Services, we expressed the need to get more 23 resources to local governments and school 24 districts in this space, and we look forward 499 1 to continuing that dialogue with all of you. 2 Thank you. 3 MR. WHITE: Thank you. 4 MR. FESSLER: Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 7 Next up is Senator Robert Jackson. 8 SENATOR JACKSON: Hi, everyone. 9 Thanks for staying the course to come and 10 give testimony. I appreciate listening to 11 all your testimony. 12 And I see many people start out by 13 saying thanks for the Foundation Aid, but 14 Michael Rebell, who is waiting to testify, 15 was the attorney that brought the lawsuit, 16 the Campaign for Fiscal Equity lawsuit in -- 17 for New York City. Because at that time, my 18 daughter's classrooms were 35, 40, they 19 didn't have seats in some of the schools, and 20 many of the teachers were not certified. And 21 so the need was great. 22 So you just need to understand that 23 this lawsuit was brought in order to 24 provide -- the highest court said that every 500 1 child should graduate from high school 2 knowing how to read, knowing how to write, 3 knowing how to serve on a jury, and being 4 able to hold competitive employment. 5 That's what this is about. So it's 6 really for the neediest of the needy right 7 now. And so I say that because I was 8 listening to some of the conversations, and 9 for myself, I am one of the sponsors of IONY, 10 Invest in Our New York, asking the wealthiest 11 New Yorkers to invest in New York so that 12 others can have food, can have shelter over 13 their head, good healthcare -- all of the 14 things, minimally, that I'm sure all of you 15 want. 16 I needed to say that because it's 17 important that we need to refocus, as a 18 family helping one another. And just 19 because, you know, one family member may have 20 a lot more money than everyone else, and they 21 feel they should get some of the money to 22 educate their children when they can educate 23 them with what they have, that's not really 24 being brotherly and sisterly. So I just say 501 1 that loud and clear. 2 But I've read some of your 3 testimony -- especially Jim, who is the 4 ranker on the Education Committee, talking 5 about the New York State Parent Teachers 6 Association and the percentages as far as the 7 survey that you did, and he's going to talk 8 about that later. 9 But let's stay together, let's help 10 one another so that all of us -- all of our 11 children can get a real good education. 12 That's my message to all of you. 13 Thank you. 14 PANELIST MEMBERS: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly? 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 17 Slater. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Hello, again. 19 Thank you for your patience and staying with 20 us here so late. 21 I just wanted to go back to the EV bus 22 conversation. One of the things I've heard 23 from my superintendents in my district -- 24 obviously the state's going to have -- is 502 1 going to be handing down some climate goals, 2 but there's been no conversation, at least to 3 my knowledge, about funding how they're going 4 to achieve those goals. 5 And so I didn't know if that was 6 something that maybe you've discussed and 7 you've made some proposals for, but I know 8 that's what I keep hearing from my 9 superintendents, about how are they going to 10 pay to implement some of the measures that 11 they expect to have to deal with in the 12 coming years. 13 MR. LITTLE: Yeah, others may want to 14 weigh in on this as well. I think we're in 15 the infancy of the practical side of all of 16 this. I think this really was aspirational 17 until the Environmental Bond Act actually 18 passed and set aside a half a billion dollars 19 toward this. I don't think state leaders 20 knew where the money was coming from, it was 21 unbudgeted for up until that point. 22 So I think the kind of real logistical 23 work can begin now because there is that 24 funding source, and we're going to have to 503 1 try and figure out how much does it cost to 2 put those charging stations -- enough for a 3 bus to run all day long every day during the 4 school year, how much does it cost to remove 5 a fuel depot that EnCon's going to want out 6 of there if it's unused. You can't just 7 store fuel in the ground ad infinitum. 8 And so there's -- you're going to have 9 to have routes reworked according to the 10 capabilities of the vehicle that you have. 11 All those types of things have to be worked 12 out. And we don't necessarily need to delay 13 it if you have the money to implement it. 14 But if you don't have the money to implement 15 it, we would certainly hope that the funding 16 and the implementation keeps to the same 17 timeline. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: And we still 19 don't know if we allocated enough dollars for 20 that. 21 MR. LITTLE: Oh, we have no idea. 22 Less idea than you do. And I don't think you 23 know how much this is going to cost at this 24 point, honestly. Because there's only one 504 1 bus company that I've talked to that even 2 claims to be able -- to be capable of 3 providing the buses to do this. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Very good. 5 I don't know if anyone else wanted to 6 make comments on that? 7 MR. LOWRY: You know, as Dave 8 mentioned, the Environmental Bond Act does 9 provide at least $500 million to go towards 10 the transition to zero-emission school buses. 11 That's obviously a large sum, but I can see 12 it being spent very quickly. You know, 13 there's not just the additional cost of the 14 buses, but I've just been struck by the 15 infrastructure costs. Driving by the lot of 16 my children's school, the bus lot, just how 17 would you install enough charging stations 18 for all those buses? 19 So I think there are pieces that were 20 added in the enacted budget on top of what 21 the Governor proposed, calling for a 22 roadmap -- presumably pun intended there -- 23 and some other pieces. I think those are 24 useful steps. And next month we will have 505 1 representatives of NYSERDA doing a 2 presentation and discussion with 3 superintendents about how this is expected to 4 proceed and what problems we see. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 7 Senate? 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Jim 9 Tedisco. 10 SENATOR TEDISCO: Kyle, I don't know 11 if you were here early on when I asked some 12 of the questions about bullying. And I told 13 some of the groups that were here, there's a 14 group of parents and individuals who have 15 asked me to do something extended and 16 expanded as a public servant as it relates to 17 bullying in schools in New York State. 18 Because they believe it is expanding. 19 And I said earlier on, but we all know 20 this, bullying has expanded in an 21 unbelievable way that never existed before. 22 And it doesn't stop at the school door, it 23 doesn't stop at the gates, doesn't stop in 24 the streets, doesn't stop in your home. 506 1 Because of the internet, social media, it 2 could be 24/7. And what the real concern 3 is -- not only the program, which I know 4 you're concerned about in terms of mental 5 health with the PTA -- is the fact that we 6 have laws in place right now to deal with in 7 the schools whereby the administration, when 8 it reaches a certain level, has to contact 9 the State Education Department and say a 10 bullying incident has taken place. 11 I can't find any statistics on how 12 many times that's happened in individual 13 schools or across our schools. But I also 14 know this. There's no requirement or mandate 15 to contact the people who should believe in 16 and I think love their children the most, and 17 that is the parents -- who are part of the 18 PTA, who are asked to come to parent-teacher 19 meetings, who are asked to help develop -- 20 get involved more. Get involved more, but we 21 shouldn't tell you when your child's head's 22 has been rammed into a locker every day or is 23 belittled or humiliated every day. 24 And of course you probably know I have 507 1 a bill called Jacobe's Law, for Jacobe Taras, 2 13 years old, bullying to the extent, in the 3 school, where he took his own life. And his 4 parents came to me and said, Nobody ever 5 contacted us, we weren't able to get into 6 that school and be a part of the program. 7 Now, it doesn't make any sense to me 8 that we want them to be a part of everything 9 else -- the curriculum, individual education 10 plans -- but we don't want them to know, in 11 many instances -- I'm not saying all schools 12 don't notify the parents and bring them in. 13 Some do. But in this case and in other 14 cases, in many cases -- there was a case when 15 I passed this bill, passed it twice when we 16 were in the majority, to notify the 17 parents -- where in New York City a gay 18 student was being belittled and humiliated by 19 other individuals in the school every time he 20 came to school. The parents weren't 21 notified. Know what happened? He came to 22 school with a gun and killed those who were 23 humiliating him. Now, it wasn't the one that 24 was being bullied; he had enough. 508 1 So this -- when this happens, when we 2 don't notify parents in any way, it's very, 3 very dangerous, I believe. 4 And the good Senator, Senator Jackson, 5 gave me his technology here, and I'm 6 looking -- and, you know, sometimes we don't 7 know the extent of this, and I was wondering 8 about that. You did this fall survey, 9 New York State PTA survey. You know, For 10 those who are listening, in the survey -- 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry. We're at 12 zero. 13 SENATOR TEDISCO: -- from highest to 14 lower was 81 percent anxiety, but bullying 15 was 62.16 percent -- 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, Jim. 17 SENATOR TEDISCO: So my question is -- 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: No, you don't get 19 any more questions right now. Sorry. You 20 can ask them in the next round. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: You need to 22 start with the question, not the statement. 23 SENATOR TEDISCO: I got carried away, 24 I'm sorry. 509 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we go to 2 Assemblyman Manktelow. 3 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you, 4 Chairwoman. 5 David, just to go back to the EV buses 6 in the rural areas. Has anybody looked at 7 the cost of selling the buses that you have 8 now? Where are they going to be sold to? 9 What's going to be the loss to the taxpayers 10 from buying those buses? So if we buy a 11 brand-new diesel bus today and we get rid of 12 it in a few years, what's going to be the 13 lost amount for those buses, and where are we 14 going to sell all of these buses in New York 15 State? That's my first question. 16 The second question is, are you aware 17 of any trials that are going on in the rural 18 areas where they're actually using some of 19 these buses so that we have a better idea of 20 what we are up against before we just fully 21 implement this? 22 MR. LITTLE: The answer to the first 23 question is God only knows. We don't have 24 any idea where you'd have a market for that 510 1 many school buses -- except to other states 2 that don't have this requirement. 3 The answer to the second question -- 4 tell me one more time, what was it? 5 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Sorry, David, 6 we -- 7 MR. LITTLE: Oh, do we have routing 8 information about how -- 9 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Well, I would 10 think it would behoove us to do some trials 11 out there, especially in the rural areas. 12 Because you're looking at the footprint of 13 the district, the square miles, you're 14 looking at the hills. You're also looking at 15 the weather, you're looking at wind chills. 16 If you're driving on a snow-covered road, 17 you're not going to go as fast or as far as 18 you would on a fair road. 19 And I think before we implement this 20 across the state -- especially up north, 21 especially out west, in the more rural 22 areas -- I would think we would want to try a 23 trial for a year or two in the school system 24 to find out what's going to work and what's 511 1 not going to work. 2 MR. LITTLE: Yeah, I would certainly 3 agree. But I'm not aware that any trials 4 have been done, at least in New York so 5 far -- 6 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: So is that -- 7 MR. LITTLE -- to determine that. 8 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: David, is that 9 something we should do here to help you with 10 that from the legislative side, is maybe get 11 something implemented to do that? 12 MR. LITTLE: NYSERDA is supposed to be 13 helping school districts. And I would think 14 that would certainly be a help, if they could 15 provide that kind of a study. 16 We actually had asked the one bus 17 company that claims to be able to do this to 18 our summer conference, to give us that kind 19 of information, and they declined. 20 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: Assemblyman, I'll 21 add that parents and families are very much 22 worried about that. 23 We're very supportive of the move, of 24 course, because we want our children to be 512 1 healthy, and that is the move. But as an 2 example, my child in our eastern Rensselaer 3 County small rural school district, he gets 4 picked up at 7:00 in the morning and he gets 5 dropped off at 8:10 at our school. So he is 6 on the bus for an hour and 10 minutes in the 7 morning and an hour and 10 minutes in the 8 afternoon. 9 It hit negative-20 last week in our 10 school district, and we always have a 11 significant amount of snow because we are a 12 bit in the mountains, just about 10, 13 15 minutes from Massachusetts. 14 So I think parents and families are 15 concerned. We want this to work. Everybody 16 wants this to work. But we have to make sure 17 it's going to work, and we have to give 18 school districts and school leaders, like my 19 fine colleagues here, the support to make 20 this work for our kids. 21 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: I only have a 22 few seconds, but the other question, just to 23 take back, is some schools have their buses 24 in buildings that are enclosed. You're going 513 1 to have to add fire suppression in those 2 buildings for those batteries in those buses. 3 Just food for thought. 4 Thank you all. 5 MS. BELAKOPITSKY: We're extremely 6 concerned about the fire with lithium-ion 7 batteries and electric school buses. 8 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you all. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Before we go to 10 the Senate, I just wanted to -- I failed to 11 acknowledge our Majority Leader, Crystal 12 Peoples-Stokes, joined us a while ago. 13 Now to the Senate. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 15 A little bit more of a quick 16 statement, because many of you have already 17 asked about electric school buses. And we 18 have till 2035 before all of it has to be 19 implemented, and the technology keeps 20 changing. 21 So just for the record, there are 22 551 electric buses already on the roads, 23 including in Alaska and Minnesota; they're 24 working in winter. The average U.S. school 514 1 bus route is 63 miles per day, while the 2 current buses have a range of about 3 150 miles. And we know the technology's 4 going to get better. And we know there's 5 going to be more than one company. 6 So I want to just say the state's not 7 going to make everybody do something that 8 can't be done. We just want to get ourselves 9 started rolling, and we want the industry to 10 hear we're really interested in going this 11 route because we need to go EV on all 12 vehicles as quickly as possible. 13 It's not that we want to leave anybody 14 hanging out there to dry with a system that 15 can't work because the buses don't exist. 16 So that's my little speech, sorry. 17 And you can answer if you wish. 18 MR. LITTLE: Senator, we certainly 19 appreciate the lead time and anticipate 20 working together as we go forward on all of 21 this. 22 The fact that you've required it quite 23 frankly creates the market for them, and so 24 we would expect that they'll develop too. 515 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 2 MS. BELOKOPITSKY: And it's healthier 3 for our children, so that's always positive. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 So we go to Assemblyman Ra. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you. 7 Thank you all for your patience today 8 and for being here. 9 Mr. Lowry, can you talk a little bit 10 about -- I actually, when I went outside, I 11 got a phone call from one of my school 12 superintendents. And in particular, we were 13 discussing the set-aside for the high-impact 14 tutoring. And I think we all recognize the 15 importance of something like that. 16 But, you know, it's tying the hands a 17 little bit of the districts in terms of how 18 they can spend that money. And I know in 19 your written testimony, you know, you talked 20 about some rural and poorer communities 21 having a difficult time finding teachers that 22 are going to be able to do that. 23 So can you just elaborate on your 24 concerns and opposition to that proposal? 516 1 MR. LOWRY: Yes. Well, again, first 2 of all, districts have been prioritizing 3 that, partly by choice, recognizing, you 4 know, how the disruptions in learning brought 5 on by the pandemic affected children. 6 But also it's been a requirement. The 7 American Rescue Plan COVID relief funding for 8 schools, districts were required to use at 9 least 20 percent to address learning loss. 10 And the state had additional funding to 11 allocate for so-called learning-loss grants. 12 So districts received large sums for that and 13 have been prioritizing it. 14 I mentioned our survey this year, 15 79 percent of superintendents said they 16 believe their district budget would improve 17 extra academic help, a similar figure to the 18 year before. So that has been a priority. 19 We also heard anecdotally that 20 districts in some cases were having a hard 21 time spending that money because they 22 couldn't find people to -- just additional 23 teachers to be, you know, reading teachers, 24 literacy teachers. Or, you know, expanding 517 1 summer school, extending the school day, that 2 sort of thing. 3 And then I've also heard from 4 superintendents who said, We feel we've done 5 everything we can do; we have other 6 priorities. And in some cases it's being 7 able to raise pay to find enough bus drivers. 8 And I'm aware of at least one 9 newspaper who said under the circumstances 10 school districts should be reducing property 11 taxes. That would create issues going 12 forward because of the tax cap. But I note 13 districts would like to try and be able to 14 hold down tax levy increases, to the extent 15 that they are required to spend this money or 16 lose it, because the bill says that it must 17 be used to supplement, not supplant. That 18 creates a potential where a district could 19 say, We have strong and clear priorities, but 20 we're not going to be able to address those 21 because of this set-aside requirement. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So thank you 24 all for being here and for the work you do in 518 1 New York State on behalf of our students. 2 There are no further questions. 3 So we're going to call the next panel, 4 Panel E: New York Library Association, 5 New York Association for Pupil 6 Transportation, New York School Bus 7 Contractors Association, New York State 8 Association for Computers and Technology in 9 Education, and New York State Community 10 Schools Network. 11 And I would suggest to the next panel, 12 you might want to start to come down, 13 Teach NYS, New York City Catholic School 14 Superintendents, and Agudath Israel. 15 So I just -- I wanted to remind 16 witnesses, since some people came in since we 17 made the last announcement, your testimony 18 was distributed yesterday to all of the 19 members. Please don't read your testimony -- 20 three minutes goes quickly. 21 And once it's time for questions, the 22 three minutes is for the question and the 23 answer, so keep an eye on the clock. 24 You can go in -- and you might as well 519 1 start at the end of the table and work your 2 way over. 3 MR. PRIME: Hello, and thank you for 4 having me today. My name is Max Prime, and I 5 have the privilege of serving the New York 6 Library Association as their director of 7 government relations and advocacy. 8 Thank you for providing me for with 9 the opportunity to -- sorry -- thank you for 10 the opportunity to testify today on behalf of 11 our state's libraries and library systems as 12 well as the more than 10 million New Yorkers 13 who hold library cards. 14 The fiscal year 2024 Executive Budget 15 outlines identical levels of funding for 16 State Library Aid and the State Library 17 Construction program as were proposed for 18 fiscal year 2023, and this year's proposal 19 includes $96.1 million for State Library Aid 20 and 14 million for the State Library 21 Construction Program. 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sir, could you 23 slow down? I know we're putting pressure on 24 you to do it all in three minutes. 520 1 Give him another 30 seconds. 2 And then just a little slower, and as 3 close to the mic as possible. Thank you. 4 MR. PRIME: Unfortunately, while last 5 year $96.1 million represented a $2 million 6 increase in spending for State Library Aid 7 over then-current funding levels, it would 8 now constitute a $3.5 million reduction. And 9 similarly, $14 million for State Library 10 Construction would slash that program by 11 $20 million and is over $1.4 billion short of 12 present community need. 13 Despite historic investments in pre-K 14 and K-12 education, Governor Hochul's budget 15 fails to recognize the essential role that 16 libraries and library systems play in 17 foundational and lifelong learning. And 18 simply stated, the levels of funding 19 articulated are insufficient for the 20 effective operation of what are our critical 21 community institutions that promote equity in 22 education and bridge gaps in access to 23 critical resources during still uncertain 24 times. 521 1 As such, the New York Library 2 Association is requesting $147.1 million in 3 State Library Aid this year, $69.4 million to 4 the State Library Construction Program, and 5 is asking the Legislature to strongly 6 consider increasing Instructional Materials 7 Aid, specifically library materials aid, to 8 $11 per pupil. 9 On State Library Aid, the program is 10 the primary source of funding for New York's 11 library systems and provides shared services 12 and resources to each library in New York, 13 and these systems services ensure that every 14 community and every New Yorker, regardless of 15 relative wealth, has access to quality 16 library materials and services. 17 As for library construction, every 18 year the Legislature has the responsibility 19 to identify and resecure Library Construction 20 Aid that has been reduced in that year's 21 proposed Executive Budget and to reiterate a 22 statistic that you've heard probably one too 23 many times: The State Division of Library 24 Development estimates there's a statewide 522 1 need of $1.5 billion, and it's far past time 2 to invest in this program. 3 And finally, for Instructional 4 Materials Aid, it includes library materials, 5 textbooks, software and hardware, and aid for 6 each is critical to ensure that students have 7 access to educational materials and 8 technology. 9 Since 1994, the per-pupil rate for 10 library materials has only increased $4.25. 11 It's currently $6.25, and it's stayed that 12 way since 2007. Libraries cannot continue to 13 serve their communities and students with the 14 proposed budget, and we implore the 15 Legislature to invest in our state's 16 libraries so that your constituents, our 17 patrons and our communities, can thrive. 18 Thank you so much. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 20 Next -- and please introduce 21 yourself. 22 DR. DELCORVO: Senate Finance 23 Committee Chair Krueger, Assembly Ways and 24 Means Chair Weinstein, Senate Education Chair 523 1 Mayer, Assembly Education Chair Benedetto, 2 Assembly Libraries and Education Technology 3 Chair Woerner, and distinguished members of 4 the Legislature, thank you for inviting me 5 today. 6 I believe that every educator should 7 have the opportunity to do what I'm doing 8 today. My name is Dr. Amy DelCorvo. I am 9 the CEO and executive director for the 10 New York State Association for Computers and 11 Technologies in Education, known throughout 12 the state as NYSCATE. 13 NYSCATE is a nonprofit professional 14 organization representing more than 30,000 15 technology-using educators and administrators 16 in New York State. We serve as the New York 17 affiliate for various national organizations 18 and as a trusted partner of NYSED, BOCES and 19 local districts. NYSCATE advises various 20 state committees and boards to define 21 statewide policy regarding the use of 22 technologies in education. 23 All regions of the state are 24 represented in our community of teachers, 524 1 administrators, parents, and pre-service 2 educators, which as we heard today is more 3 important than ever. 4 Our overarching mission is to lead the 5 transformation of teaching and learning 6 through the appropriate use of technology. 7 Not all technology, but the appropriate use. 8 Several years ago, utilizing one-time 9 federal CARES Act I funding, NYSCATE 10 partnered with NYSED to offer online 11 professional development courses. These 12 courses were developed and facilitated by 13 New York educators aligned to New York State 14 standards built to supplement local education 15 agencies. Forty online courses were 16 developed by expert in-service teachers 17 located throughout our great state. Courses 18 were made available to all public, private, 19 charter, and pre-service educators at 20 absolutely no cost. They are also available 21 for continuing teacher and leader education 22 credit, which we all know as CTLE credit, 23 available in multiple languages, adhering to 24 New York State professional development 525 1 guidelines and standards in the guiding 2 principles of CTLE. 3 The success of the project was 4 evident, engaging over 40,000 educators, the 5 vast majority during the last month of 6 project funding. Our funding ended in 7 October of 2022. NYSCATE awarded over 8 106,000 CTLE credit hours to New York State 9 teachers at no charge. 10 Since the conclusion of the program, 11 there have been thousands of educator 12 requests to continue to access the courses 13 and to build upon the success of the 14 initiative, such as the computer science and 15 digital fluency standard. Not just bullying, 16 Senator, but cyberbullying is a major aspect 17 of that as well, all very hidden in many 18 aspects. Multilanguage learners, 19 social-emotional learning -- there are many 20 strategies that need to be covered still. 21 I have included several testimonials 22 in my written testimony which validates the 23 impact that this program has had. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, you'll 526 1 just have to trust us to read the rest of the 2 testimony. 3 DR. DELCORVO: Please read the rest 4 for the ask of the $2 million line for free 5 for every profession, every teacher in the 6 state, pre-service, higher ed, K-12, and 7 every administrator, a $2 million line. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 9 DR. DELCORVO: Thank you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Next? 11 MR. VALLONE: Good evening. 12 My name is Nicholas Vallone, executive 13 vice president of Rolling V Bus Corp. in the 14 Catskill region of New York, and also the 15 acting president of the New York School Bus 16 Contractors Association, here today 17 representing 200 private-pupil transportation 18 operators that provide 85 percent of 19 New York's districts with safe, reliable, and 20 cost-effective student transportation. 21 Thanks to our 50,000 drivers, aides, 22 and mechanics, we provide the safest ride 23 possible to and from school each day for 24 New York students. 527 1 I'd like to thank all the members of 2 the joint committee on Education for allowing 3 us to provide our 2023-'24 budget 4 recommendations today. 5 New York is well on its way to 6 transforming school transportation by 7 committing to 100 percent electric school 8 buses by 2035, with a moratorium on 9 internal-combustion purchases in the year 10 2027. As many of you know, New York's school 11 bus contractors are at the forefront of that 12 movement, currently running electric school 13 buses and working with NYSERDA on the state's 14 roadmap to electrification. 15 Despite the advantages of electric 16 school buses, two significant barriers to 17 private adoption currently exist. Today the 18 grid cannot handle the increased demand. We 19 are confident that our partners in the 20 utilities of New York State will be able to 21 rise to the challenge, not only to 22 accommodate electric school buses but EVs in 23 general. 24 Second, the fact remains that the cost 528 1 of electric school buses are roughly 2 three times that of a traditional school bus. 3 Even with current available funds in the 4 amount of almost $1 billion, simple math 5 proves that these funds can only replace 6 roughly 6 percent of New York's school bus 7 fleet. Even if you triple that estimate, 8 there's an obvious financial gap to be 9 bridged to achieve 100 percent. 10 In regards to school bus contractors, 11 there is one simple solution that will allow 12 us to move this initiative forward at the 13 rate necessary to meet the current or even 14 extended deadlines. That solution is 15 contract modification. 16 Zero of the 5,000 transportation 17 contracts in the State of New York provide 18 pricing for electric school buses. Allowing 19 for modification would avoid the alternative 20 solution of rebidding these 5,000 contracts 21 in a three-year period. Such a process would 22 not only be unprecedented, it would be 23 detrimental to our state's largest public 24 transportation network, the yellow school 529 1 bus. 2 Lastly, we are asking the state to 3 consider the elimination of sales tax levied 4 on private school bus contractors. In a 5 roundabout way, our costs are passed on 6 through the state via Transportation Aid 7 reimbursement to school districts. In short, 8 New York State is paying its own tax in the 9 amount of roughly $285 million every year. 10 Elimination of this cyclical tax would 11 free up funding for electric school buses, 12 greatly bridging the aforementioned gap in 13 funding. 14 These two proposed solutions are 15 necessary for New York's electric school bus 16 initiative. They're also achievable in this 17 year's budget. If granted, New York school 18 bus contractors can help accelerate this 19 transition. If not, we will continue to meet 20 barriers that make this initiative 21 increasingly difficult if not impossible. 22 Thank you for your time. We are here 23 to help. And above all, we are here to 24 transport New York students safely. 530 1 Thank you. 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 3 Good evening. 4 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Good afternoon. 5 My name is David Christopher. I'm the 6 executive director of the New York 7 Association for Pupil Transportation. I'm 8 here on behalf of the more than 700 members 9 of NYAPT, and I want to thank you for 10 allowing us to present our testimony today in 11 response to the '23-'24 Executive Budget 12 proposal. We appreciate the Legislature's 13 continued commitment to safe school 14 transportation. 15 I'd like to speak to two issues of 16 importance today, staffing shortage and zero 17 emission buses. 18 First off, NYAPT strongly supports the 19 Governor's proposal to temporarily remove the 20 earnings cap for state retirees. We ask the 21 State Legislature to also support that 22 proposal to help address the severe school 23 bus driver shortage problem in our state, 24 along with other staff as well. In a recent 531 1 poll of our members, over 100 members stated 2 they employ retirees who would benefit by 3 this proposal. 4 In terms of the zero-emission school 5 bus mandate, we all know and we've heard 6 today that the mandate requires zero-emission 7 buses on our highways in New York by 2035. 8 Our position is that the mandate timelines 9 are unrealistic due to the fact of the 10 electric bus infrastructure technology not 11 being ready for full implementation in the 12 school bus industry. 13 There are many challenges to overcome, 14 and a one-size-fits-all solution does not 15 work in our geographically diverse state. We 16 again suggest a state-funded pilot program be 17 established throughout the state in different 18 geographic areas to test these out. 19 Regarding cost, an electric school bus 20 costs three to four times that of a diesel 21 gas-powered bus -- somewhere in the 22 neighborhood of $400,000 to $450,000 each, 23 compared to currently around $125,000. 24 There's simply not enough funding 532 1 currently earmarked or available to fully 2 fund this transition that must start in 3 earnest now. We cannot wait until years 4 forward to start this process. 5 The grant and rebate money, which is 6 somewhere around $800 million, falls short. 7 And many school districts don't qualify, nor 8 do private operators. 9 We're very concerned about the success 10 of the future bus propositions as well, as 11 local taxpayers will be asked to foot the 12 bill for a portion of the estimated 13 $15 billion required to convert the state 14 school bus fleet. Additional funding is 15 needed to cover the cost of this transition 16 to assist localities. 17 To add to the challenges, last year 18 the state amended the amortization schedule 19 for electric school buses from a five-year 20 amortization to 12 years. The 12-year state 21 aid reimbursement term for the purchase of 22 electric buses does not incentivize school 23 districts to transition their bus fleets to 24 zero-emission vehicles. We strongly request 533 1 that the state aid reimbursement for the 2 purchase of electric buses be reevaluated. 3 We support the Executive Budget 4 proposal to collect data from school 5 districts on the progress of transitioning 6 their buses to zero emissions, and we 7 certainly hope you do as well. 8 We want to thank you for your support 9 on these issues as we go forward through the 10 budget process. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 12 Good evening. 13 MS. LIDIE: Hi, I'm Alli, and I'm 14 representing the New York State Community 15 Schools Network. Thank you for the 16 opportunity to present testimony. 17 Across the state, schools are 18 struggling. Students are working tirelessly 19 to catch up on lost learning, but they face 20 significant challenges to their mental health 21 as they navigate the impacts of COVID-19, 22 including the trauma of loss and grief. 23 Families have been hit hard with 24 crisis after crisis, and there are inequities 534 1 present in their ability and preparedness to 2 support their children's academic success 3 after the school day. Teachers are burnt out 4 trying to manage behavioral issues and still 5 try to teach their curriculum. 6 One teacher I spoke with recently said 7 his job teaching at a middle school in 8 Brooklyn was 90 percent social work, 9 10 percent actually teaching. An 10 administrator I've worked with in the 11 Syracuse area told me about the challenges of 12 trying to get an after-school program up and 13 running using schoolteachers through ARP 14 funding because, despite offers of high 15 hourly wages, and due to high rates of 16 teacher burnout, hardly any teachers were 17 willing to sign up to stay extra hours each 18 afternoon and run the program. 19 But what would it look like if 20 students had access to health and mental 21 health services they needed without ever 22 leaving school? If families felt welcomed in 23 schools and could go there to receive 24 education, food and clothes they need, and 535 1 serve as thought partners in the school 2 community? If teachers had the support from 3 community partners, counselors, and social 4 workers so they could focus solely on 5 teaching? If available services and 6 community resources were targeted to students 7 based on their specific needs? 8 These schools exist. They exist in 9 New York, and they probably exist in your 10 district. They are called Community Schools, 11 and they could be every school with just a 12 little of your support. 13 Community School strategy coordinates 14 the resources and relationships in a 15 community to meet the needs of students so 16 that everyone can thrive. Data linked in our 17 full testimony shows not only that the 18 Community School strategy works to increase 19 attendance, reduce disciplinary incidences, 20 and has a positive impact on test scores, but 21 also that it creates a return on investment, 22 in some cases upwards of $20 for every $1 23 invested. 24 So what can you do? A small 536 1 $1 million increase in the Community Schools 2 Technical Assistance Centers this year will 3 go a long way. Their first five-year 4 contract is coming to an end. The investment 5 is critical now to ensure that there is 6 enough capacity to assist schools looking to 7 utilize the Community School strategy over 8 the next five years. 9 An extra $1 million will increase 10 capacity at all of the Technical Assistance 11 Centers and allow a fourth center to better 12 meet the needs. 13 The only dedicated state investment is 14 in the Technical Assistance Centers. It's 15 time to actually invest in this strategy. We 16 are asking for $100 million in categorical 17 aid to expand Community Schools statewide. 18 Finally, we ask to maintain 19 $250 million in Community Schools set-aside 20 funding. We also support critical funding 21 for the programs and services Community 22 Schools effectively leverage and coordinate, 23 including after-school summer and expanded 24 learning programs, pre-K, school-based health 537 1 centers and mental health, as outlined in our 2 written testimony. 3 Thank you. 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 5 Assembly? Okay. 6 Senate, any questions? Ah, Senator 7 Shelley Mayer. 8 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. 9 First, for Mr. Christopher and 10 Mr. Vallone, thank you for your comments on 11 the bus driver shortage. I just wonder, in 12 addition to things that both DMV and the 13 Governor's office and others, SED, put on the 14 table over the last year, do you have 15 additional ideas of how to encourage more 16 individuals to take the test, to become 17 eligible and participate? 18 I personally think that there is more 19 opportunity and we're not maximizing it. I'm 20 just wondering if you think that -- if you 21 could share briefly your ideas. 22 MR. CHRISTOPHER: I will try to be 23 brief, but I could go long on that. 24 First off, we have to be competitive 538 1 with other industries. What's happened here 2 is many people who may otherwise have become 3 school bus drivers can go to other types of 4 industry and make more money. 5 SENATOR MAYER: Right. 6 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Even though we pay 7 our drivers, say, $20 an hour, which sounds 8 like a lot, they don't make the hours per day 9 to live on this wage. So we've got to look 10 at certainly the hourly wage. We have to 11 look at the atmosphere they work in. 12 In terms of, you know, modern 13 equipment, you know, you probably heard me 14 speak a little about electric vehicles. I'm 15 not -- I'm not down on electric vehicles. 16 That -- actually they're seen as possibly an 17 enhancement for a driver because they're 18 quieter to use, to drive. 19 Certainly we talked about the 20 possibility of a tax break or a tax incentive 21 for school bus drivers similar to what 22 teachers and firefighters have as well. 23 So there's a lot of things that we 24 have to do to look at the driver position. 539 1 One thing I think -- and it was talked about 2 earlier regarding teachers -- is I think we 3 need to look at the position and understand 4 the importance of that position in our 5 community. They're providing a very needed 6 public service. And I think we need to start 7 looking at that as -- the position as a 8 necessary part of our community that helps 9 educate kids. 10 And I'll turn it over to my colleague 11 here, who is in the same business. I'm sure 12 he can add. 13 MR. VALLONE: Dave, thank you. And 14 Senator Mayer, thank you for the question. 15 One thing New York can do almost 16 immediately, and it's already been discussed 17 with our partners at DMV, is to adopt the 18 federal under-the-hood waiver that was just 19 recently passed in this year's cycle. 20 Just to explain to the committee what 21 that is, school bus drivers, in order to pass 22 the test right now to become a school bus 23 driver, have to go underneath the hood and 24 identify engine parts. 540 1 And actually the day they become a 2 school bus driver, we don't permit them to do 3 that. And it's increased the number of 4 people attracted to the job, but it will 5 certainly increase the number of people 6 passing the test to become a school bus 7 driver. And if you want to bring it full 8 circle, under the hood of an electric school 9 bus, there is nothing. 10 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. 11 And just for Alli, thank you for your 12 advocacy on after-school. 13 Are you supportive of the Governor's 14 proposal to move the funding from 15 administration to OCFS? 16 MS. LIDIE: Yes, we are. 17 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly. 19 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman 20 Woerner, chair of Libraries. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you. 22 Thank you, Mr. Prime, for your 23 testimony. And I just have one question. 24 Have you estimated what the cost would 541 1 be of the increase to the Instructional 2 Materials Aid if we adopted the proposal that 3 you've got to move it to $11 per student? 4 MR. PRIME: Yes, we have. I did some 5 rough estimating, and there would be an 6 increase of about 13.59 million. And that 7 would in -- kind of be, all told, 8 31.47 million. 9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you very 10 much. 11 And Mr. Vallone, one question for you. 12 So you talked about the need for 13 transmission infrastructure to support 14 charging at the bus garages. Have you done 15 any modeling to sort of estimate for a 16 standard, say, suburban school district, how 17 much power they need to have -- power 18 capacity they need to have available in the 19 bus garage to power a fleet of EV school 20 buses? 21 MR. VALLONE: Yeah, that's something 22 that we're working on with NYSERDA as part of 23 that advisory committee that also includes 24 members from the state -- you know, our 542 1 utility partners. 2 I will not claim to be an expert in 3 that regard, but I will say that's exactly 4 the thing we need to look at. It's not what 5 in -- you know, what the ask is and what the 6 energy request is to get two, three, and four 7 buses on the road but 200, 300, 400, and 500 8 buses on the road, because it's a very 9 different project from that standpoint. 10 So I do look forward to -- we have one 11 more advisory committee meeting with NYSERDA 12 coming up this month, and we're very much, 13 all of us, looking forward to completing that 14 roadmap which will provide better detail on 15 that than I can provide you as a school bus 16 guy. 17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Well, if 18 you'll make a note to send me the answer to 19 the question when you have it, I would very 20 much appreciate it. 21 MR. VALLONE: I absolutely will, 22 Assemblywoman. Thank you. 23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WOERNER: Thank you, 24 Mr. Vallone. 543 1 Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thanks. 3 Back to the Senate. 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 5 Senator Chu. 6 SENATOR CHU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 7 My question is to Mr. Prime, for 8 libraries. So Mr. Prime, if I hear 9 correctly, you mentioned that our capital 10 for -- the capital need for our libraries 11 statewide is $1.5 billion. And could you 12 tell us what's the average age of our library 13 buildings statewide? 14 MR. PRIME: Sure. So one second, I 15 just have that information here. So the 16 average need for -- or, sorry, average age of 17 a libraries statewide, over 50 percent of 18 public libraries are 60-plus years old. And 19 an additional 31 percent were over 30 years 20 old. 21 So our libraries are aging and do 22 really need those funds to be able to best 23 serve the community. 24 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 544 1 And during the past two, three years 2 during the pandemic, our library systems -- 3 is there any extra social services that were 4 needed and provided during that periods of 5 time, like telehealth? 6 MR. PRIME: Absolutely. So libraries 7 have become an essential hub of broadband 8 accessibility and access in our communities, 9 especially in a lot of our rural communities 10 where lines haven't made it out there or in 11 areas where individuals simply can't afford 12 to access broadband. 13 And so libraries have stepped in where 14 people can access telehealth needs, also job 15 search -- or, during the peak pandemic, 16 unemployment applications. And that also 17 ties in a lot with the construction aid, 18 because one of the needs that comes up with 19 the telehealth is to build in more privacy, 20 and that comes when people are trying to 21 access our spaces for teleworking and other 22 needs. 23 There are HIPAA requirements for 24 telehealth, and there are just personal needs 545 1 for privacy as well. And there are materials 2 out there that can be used to build more 3 private spaces. And bringing us back to 4 $14 million is not going to allow us to do 5 that. 6 SENATOR CHU: Right. So you think 7 right now our library infrastructure will be 8 able to handle those needs like broadband, 9 privacy -- are we able? 10 MR. PRIME: As currently funded, no. 11 And bringing us back to 14 million, 12 absolutely not. 13 We really need the funding to expand 14 broadband, to expand privacy. And just as 15 you mentioned before, our libraries are aging 16 and they need to be renovated and fixed up in 17 some cases. 18 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 19 And I would like to quickly address 20 about -- in the past two, three years during 21 the pandemic, again, our ebook, our digital 22 material usage has been increased. Do you 23 have any data? 24 MR. PRIME: So as far as specific data 546 1 for increased usage, not that I can quote, 2 but I can get that for you. 3 But I do know that that usage has 4 skyrocketed and it's become an issue as 5 purchasing ebooks for libraries. I'd be 6 happy to get you that information outside. 7 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 8 MR. PRIME: Thank you. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 10 Assembly. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 12 Assemblyman Slater. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you, 14 Madam Chair. 15 I do want to thank the panel, 16 especially the conversation on the school 17 buses, something that we were talking about 18 with the last group. 19 But as the ranker on Libraries, I'd 20 like to just hone in on that, if we could. 21 We did hear from the Commissioner of 22 Education that obviously the construction aid 23 is -- is a problem. And as I said earlier, 24 the library in my community dates back to the 547 1 Civil War. And my librarian actually texted 2 me while I was here to say that the last time 3 we had a renovation was before the internet 4 even existed. 5 (Laughter.) 6 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: And so obviously 7 there is a great need. And we heard the 8 numbers -- 50 percent that are 60-plus years 9 old, if not more. 10 But I'm curious, again, from an 11 operational standpoint, by cutting the 12 construction aid, what kind of impact is that 13 going to have statewide on your library 14 system? And what can we expect to see 15 diminish if those funds aren't provided? 16 MR. PRIME: Yeah. So really -- as I 17 mentioned before, one of the really cool 18 things that it can be used for is broadband 19 access, and especially -- I'm originally from 20 Canajoharie, out in the country outside of 21 Canajoharie. We got broadband pretty late. 22 A lot of the people in areas like I come from 23 go to the library to get broadband. They go 24 to -- from -- you know, after school, there 548 1 to get broadband. 2 You won't have that continue into 3 further-out areas if you don't have that 4 funding. You won't see libraries that just 5 physically need the upgrades without that 6 funding. 7 You know, 34 million -- again, the 8 statewide need is 1.5 billion. We got 9 34 million last year. Cutting back to 14, 10 you're just not going to be able to have the 11 services. 12 And I did look back through, and I do 13 believe that there was a time in the 14 mid-2000s, 2006-2007 area, where the funding 15 was higher than that. Costs have increased 16 since then. We need more funding. 17 Thank you. 18 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Yeah, absolutely. 19 And even in our library, they even 20 turned into a passport processing center. So 21 I know libraries are finding ways every day 22 to expand their services to help our 23 communities. 24 I just want to, if I can, pivot to 549 1 NOVEL. I asked the same question for -- 2 again, to the Commissioner of Education. 3 But -- so the Assembly Library 4 Committee heard, again in that hearing in 5 December, from New York City school 6 librarians that it's a critical resource of 7 public school students and it should be 8 expanded. 9 Can you give us an update on the 10 status of this program? 11 MR. PRIME: Yeah. So I actually spoke 12 with some of our school librarian members the 13 other day, and they brought this up to me, 14 saying that, you know, to them NOVEL is a 15 critical resource that they use across the 16 state. It's for some districts the only way 17 that they get databases. That's what they 18 had told me earlier. 19 So really they have emphasized to me 20 the need for that to continue. 21 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: And is it going 22 to continue? Are we able to preserve that 23 program? 24 MR. PRIME: You know, I'm unable to 550 1 say specifically, but I know that it is -- 2 you know, I have heard the testimony earlier 3 regarding funding. We need funding for that 4 to continue. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN SLATER: Thank you. 6 MR. PRIME: Thank you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 8 A Senator? Thank you. Next we have 9 Senator Murray. 10 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you very much. 11 And I'm going to keep you busy, 12 Mr. Prime. 13 So during your opening statement you 14 mentioned library systems in your testimony. 15 How many library systems do we have 16 statewide? And then how many individual 17 libraries do they serve? 18 MR. PRIME: Yes. We have 23 library 19 systems, and then we have about 756 or so 20 libraries. And then there are 1100 outlets 21 in total, including, you know, neighborhood 22 branches or bookmobiles, that sort of thing. 23 SENATOR MURRAY: So when we have these 24 cuts, how are the funds -- as far as the aid, 551 1 how are the funds appropriated? Are they 2 done regionally, are they done -- how exactly 3 are they done? 4 MR. PRIME: So the funds go to the 5 library systems, and then trickle on through 6 the library systems to the individual 7 libraries. 8 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay, so quickly, I 9 like to call libraries the great equalizer. 10 So we -- you mentioned branches and being 11 old. We have, in William Floyd District, the 12 Shirley, Mastics, and Moriches Library. The 13 main branch, I mean, we've had asbestos 14 problems, we have all -- I mean after closing 15 it down, opening up temporary branches, we 16 just opened a new branch right on Main Street 17 in Mastic Beach. 18 Opening day, when we cut the ribbon, 19 there were about 2500 people that poured 20 through the door. A little girl comes up to 21 the library and asks, What's the limit on 22 books. I think she said 50. She said "Mom," 23 and grabbed a bag, and she went loaded with 24 books. 552 1 They love it. This is -- this is the 2 chance to bring knowledge and information to 3 every neighborhood. Cutting this 4 construction aid, I wonder how -- what areas 5 will be impacted the most when we cut the 6 construction aid as well. 7 MR. PRIME: So like you mentioned, 8 there are libraries that have concrete needs 9 to update. You know, if you have safety 10 issues, like you were talking about with 11 asbestos, or other similar obstacles that 12 you're facing, you need to address that. And 13 without the funds to address that, you can't 14 address that. And then the community is 15 impacted from that. 16 SENATOR MURRAY: Do you think the aid 17 that we're going to be giving out, the 18 construction aid, if it's -- is that enough 19 to even cover the basic needs? Forget about 20 expansions or anything like this, is that 21 even enough to cover the basic needs? 22 MR. PRIME: Absolutely not, no. 23 SENATOR MURRAY: That's what I 24 thought. 553 1 I'm on limited time. So we've had 2 minimum wage increases. I know in the 3 summertime, again, in some of our branches we 4 hire some college kids to come home from 5 summer as library aides, and that increase -- 6 how have the increases affected your labor 7 costs with that many branches across the 8 state? 9 And I know the Governor gave some 10 allocation to offset that, but I doubt that's 11 enough. Again, how have your labor costs 12 been impacted over the last five years or so? 13 MR. PRIME: Certainly. So while I 14 unfortunately don't have, you know, concrete 15 data to provide you in terms of numbers, I 16 can follow up with you later on that. 17 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. 18 MR. PRIME: I can say that I have 19 heard from our membership regarding anxiety 20 about this. And we're certainly happy to 21 follow up with you after this as well. 22 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. Thank you very 23 much. 24 MR. PRIME: Thank you. 554 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 2 Assembly. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 4 Conrad. 5 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Thank you. 6 This question is for Max and 7 Dr. DelCorvo, I would assume. I want to talk 8 NOVEL databases. It's been a hot topic here. 9 We had the commissioner here earlier -- we 10 were asking questions about the cuts to 11 those. 12 What's the impact of this? You know, 13 2.6 million to a database system, what does 14 this mean, you know, to the average person on 15 the street talking about these databases, its 16 impact, why librarians are really out of 17 sorts about this issue right now? 18 MR. PRIME: So really from my 19 perspective, and what I've heard from our 20 membership, it's been from school librarians 21 stating that this is the way that many of our 22 public schools are able to have database 23 access. 24 I'm a former educator myself. I know 555 1 it's critical to have those databases, 2 especially for media literacy, education, for 3 social studies education. You know, 4 everybody deserves access to these resources. 5 Education is essential. Libraries are an 6 essential component of that, and school 7 libraries even more so. 8 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: So as a social 9 studies teacher, I would take my class down 10 to the library and we would talk about 11 sourcing, contextualizing, corroborating 12 sources, and we would go into the different 13 databases. That's the exact databases that 14 we're talking about that would be removed 15 from funding? 16 MR. PRIME: Yes. Those would be the 17 sort of databases. And, as you said, when 18 you are an educator and you bring your class 19 to the library and you're trying to teach 20 them about sourcing, about quality places to 21 get your information from, media literacy, 22 having access to databases that have 23 peer-reviewed materials, things like -- that 24 is essential to do so, where you can show 556 1 students what those materials look like. 2 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: I don't disagree. 3 With my time, you know, we talk about 4 the $6.25 -- and I know Member Woerner 5 already raised the issue -- to $11, the cost 6 of that. What else besides -- you know, when 7 we talk about these types of databases, would 8 you as an organization be looking for? You 9 know, 2.6 million is the cut. Were you guys 10 looking for an increase besides that, I guess 11 is the question. 12 MR. PRIME: Are you referring 13 specifically to NOVEL or to the library 14 materials? 15 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: Just the library 16 materials. 17 MR. PRIME: Okay. For library 18 materials, yes, we would love to see a raise 19 to $11 per pupil. That 6.25 level has stayed 20 flat basically since 2007. Costs have 21 increased since then. 22 The School Librarians Journal places 23 the current price for a nonfiction book for 24 children at around $22. So an $11 per pupil 557 1 proposal, it's half of what it would be for 2 one book for one child. It's pretty modest. 3 And honestly, you have to, as a 4 library, continue to revamp and refresh your 5 collections to stay current and to, one, 6 appeal to students, but also have information 7 that is going to be valuable to them and 8 effective for their education. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN CONRAD: I appreciate 10 that. Thank you. 11 MR. PRIME: Absolutely. 12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Next, Senate. 13 Robert Jackson. 14 SENATOR JACKSON: I was going to say 15 good afternoon, but I'll say good evening. 16 (Laughter.) 17 SENATOR JACKSON: So thank you for 18 hanging in there and communicating loud and 19 clear what you like and what you dislike 20 about the upcoming budget. 21 But let me just first confess that I 22 am a fan of Community Schools. Because I 23 remember Betty Rosa here this morning, she 24 talked about that she was the principal of 558 1 the first Community School in the State of 2 New York, and that was in Washington Heights 3 in School District 6 when I was a school 4 board president. 5 But so anything we can do to make sure 6 that a Community School has wraparound 7 services and everything that our children 8 need, that is a good thing. So I'm clearly 9 supportive of that. 10 And as far as buses, believe me, I 11 know how important buses are. When the bus 12 company of New York City was on strike many 13 years ago, 19-degree weather, we were out 14 there and waiting in order to get a contract. 15 But our kids need to be bussed, and we need 16 to make sure that they're safe, most 17 important thing. 18 And then moving -- I heard the 19 discussion, moving from -- to electric, you 20 know, that will happen over a period of time. 21 Even I said to myself, I have a car in which 22 I use gasoline. The next one, whenever that 23 is, will probably be electric. I mean, 24 that's where we have to move, from a global 559 1 point of view, to protect our environment. 2 I'm not saying that has to happen like that, 3 but we just have to move there. 4 And as far as making sure that, you 5 know, you hire -- when I say "you," we all 6 hire bus drivers in order to transport our 7 children. I totally agree wholeheartedly, 8 and I will do everything I can as a state 9 legislator to support that. 10 So I wanted to say that to all of you, 11 a little bit of this, a little bit of that. 12 But -- and I see that they put the libraries 13 with the bus transportation and the Community 14 Schools, and I was saying, what's the 15 connection? But it's all about, you know, 16 our children and education. 17 So thank you for coming and giving 18 your position. 19 Can I ask this question, please, if 20 you don't mind? And I have 56 seconds. Do 21 we -- can you explain why the current state 22 funding as a set-aside doesn't meet the needs 23 for Community Schools? 24 MS. LIDIE: Yes. We're supportive of 560 1 dedicated funding for Community Schools 2 that's additional funding outside of the 3 Foundation Aid formula -- which is a 4 set-aside of the existing funding and not 5 available to all districts that are 6 interested. 7 Community Schools are a strategy that 8 can work in any school, in any district. And 9 we would love to have funding available to 10 anyone through a categorical aid that would 11 be available, that's separate and dedicated 12 outside of the Foundation Aid. 13 SENATOR JACKSON: What's the positive 14 aspect of Community Schools versus a regular 15 school? 16 MS. LIDIE: Community Schools, again, 17 they coordinate the services and the 18 resources, bring everyone into the school to 19 dedicate that to the specific needs of the 20 students and the community so that everyone 21 can thrive. 22 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 24 Manktelow. 561 1 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you, 2 Chairwoman. 3 Max, I have a couple of questions for 4 you in regards to libraries. 5 Having a new district, I now have 6 Monroe County as part of it, so I met with 7 the library system up there in Monroe County 8 and we talked about a lot of the libraries 9 being old that are going to need a lot of 10 capital projects moving forward. 11 One of the things I talked to them 12 about is electrification, moving to electric 13 heat as they prepare to do their changes and 14 restorations to the buildings. With the 15 Governor's proposal of cutting the 16 14 million, how are we going to get over 17 that? How are our libraries prepared to move 18 to electrification in their buildings? And I 19 feel they should be, as we're going to be 20 pushing this through New York. 21 Well, what can we do with the cutting 22 of the capital money by 14 million? How are 23 we going to get over this hurdle to prepare 24 your libraries across the state to do this? 562 1 MR. PRIME: So at 14, it's not going 2 to happen. It's not going to be sufficient 3 to do that. 4 One of the things that the funding can 5 be used for is energy efficiency updates, 6 updates in line with what you were 7 discussing. So that's why, as far as our 8 organization is concerned, we really feel 9 that that $69.4 million allocation is where 10 we need to be. At least. 11 It's -- we need to have additional 12 funding to get to where we need to be. Right 13 now it's difficult to impossible. 14 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: And just a 15 follow-up on the question. As we build more 16 libraries -- I'm sorry, newer libraries and 17 reconstruction, are we incorporating solar 18 power into those libraries if possible, or 19 wind power? 20 MR. PRIME: So I can't speak 21 necessarily to specific examples, but I do 22 know that that is something that would be up 23 to the individual systems and libraries. So 24 I'd love to speak with membership to hear a 563 1 little bit more about kind of where they're 2 going with things. And give you some 3 examples, because I do believe that there are 4 systems in libraries that are leaning into 5 that. 6 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: All right. I 7 appreciate your time. Thank you. 8 MR. PRIME: Thank you. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you, 10 Madam Chair. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Do you have 12 any? 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yeah, we do. 14 Senator Tom O'Mara, to close for the 15 Senate. 16 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. 17 Thank you all for your testimony this 18 evening. 19 With regards to the electric buses, I 20 just want to clarify that while we have 21 till 2035 under the law to transfer those 22 buses to electric, that process starts in 23 four years, in 2027. At three or four times 24 the cost of a bus, plus the infrastructure 564 1 that doesn't exist, that is going to require 2 purchasing buses in 2027 and rotating them 3 through that fleet, and over that eight-year 4 period. 5 Is that a standard rollover for the 6 buses as we do them right now in the current 7 replacement schemes for most districts? 8 MR. VALLONE: I'll split my time with 9 my colleague Dave here. 10 It's a little aggressive. Ten percent 11 a year is a typical replacement schedule. 12 But I will be a voice of reason in 13 this, in circling back to my testimony on the 14 need for contract modification. We know that 15 these buses will not continue to be $450,000 16 per year. We understand that clearly. The 17 private sector of school busing is eager to 18 go to the market and tame the market to 19 figure out the true cost of this, create some 20 real competition, put in real purchase orders 21 for large amounts of buses. 22 But as we move through that process, 23 as we go to 2027, '28, all the way through 24 '35, we're going to need elasticity in our 565 1 contracts because it's a real barrier to this 2 whole initiative, to increase price or 3 decrease price assuming, you know, the price 4 of this vehicle changes over time. 5 So I hope that answers your question, 6 and I'll yield to Dave here. 7 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Yeah, I think most 8 operators have replacement plans in place, 9 and they differ. 10 They differ according to where they 11 live in the state. Some areas of the state, 12 buses just don't last as long as in other 13 areas of the state. A bus in the Long Island 14 area might last longer than a bus, say, in 15 Syracuse or out west in, you know, the 16 Buffalo area where they're running them 17 through a lot of salt, et cetera. So it 18 varies. 19 You know, my testimony said we need to 20 start now. We need to start now looking at 21 infrastructure, and we need to start getting, 22 you know, our test buses in there so we can 23 learn how to do this. This is a monumental 24 shift in the industry in terms of running, 566 1 you know, electric buses. So -- 2 SENATOR O'MARA: What are you hearing 3 out there with regards to the infrastructure? 4 What are you hearing about the cost of 5 setting up the charging stations, the 6 capability of utilities to deliver that 7 amount of energy? And are the districts 8 going to need more buses to use while they're 9 charging other buses? 10 MR. CHRISTOPHER: Yes. We've learned 11 that many areas, many school districts that 12 are running school buses, electric school 13 buses currently have actually increased their 14 bus fleets because of dependability issues. 15 And we've heard rumors of a 20 percent 16 increase because buses are not available when 17 needed due to charging issues and cold 18 weather, et cetera. So that's something we 19 have to keep in mind in terms of the cost. 20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 21 SENATOR O'MARA: Can I just ask one 22 more quick -- just on the one I asked on the 23 infrastructure. 24 What's the cost per bus for that 567 1 charging system? 2 MR. CHRISTOPHER: We're using $400,000 3 to $450,000 per bus. And a charging station, 4 depending on what you buy -- because you can 5 buy a lower level or a higher level -- excuse 6 me -- is anywhere from probably $30,000 to 7 $70,000, depending on what the charging 8 station does. 9 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you. 10 Thank you, Chairwoman. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You're welcome. 12 Assembly. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblywoman 14 Crystal Peoples-Stokes. 15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES: Thank 16 you, Madam Chair. 17 And I want to certainly appreciate you 18 and your partners from the Senate for your 19 due diligence here all day long today. I 20 have been able to weigh in a couple of times 21 over the TV screen. But you all are to be 22 commended. 23 And I certainly want to thank you all 24 for your patience in being able to wait to 568 1 testify here today. 2 I have actually three quick questions. 3 One, Community Schools. I actually am 4 the author that introduced that legislation 5 for the State of New York back in 2014, and 6 we tried to get a separate funding stream. 7 It didn't work then, and it's still a big 8 challenge right now. 9 So what you're suggesting is that it 10 should be a separate funding stream and it 11 should be increased by $100 million. 12 MS. LIDIE: That it should be separate 13 and that the separate stream should be 14 100 million. And we're still supportive of 15 maintaining the existing 250 million 16 set-aside. 17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES: Okay. 18 I do think there needs to be -- some of the 19 criteria needs to be tightened up a little 20 bit, though, because it was actually designed 21 to bring equity to education. There are some 22 children who do not come to school with the 23 same thing that other children do, and it 24 should not be a comparison to what they 569 1 receive there in terms of resources. 2 But it's important that they have 3 those wraparound services. Those work in 4 Buffalo. They have, you know, Saturday 5 schools, where parents are actually in school 6 with their children. And there are lawyers, 7 there are doctors -- whatever it is that they 8 need to be better, it is there for them. 9 I think that clearly COVID exacerbated 10 the problem, so now there are more people who 11 need it. And so I can clearly see a need for 12 more resources. 13 On the whole school bus issue, I know 14 there's a lot of reluctance to think about, 15 you know, electric buses or electricity in 16 general. But -- you know, it's a scary 17 notion, but at some point we've got to get 18 there. Because if we don't figure it out -- 19 we might not have our solutions now, but 20 we've got to keep talking about it, because 21 we've got to figure out how to get there. 22 So I'm glad you all are working at it. 23 I will say there is one instance that's 24 happening in Buffalo, where we're actually 570 1 using parents because there are not enough 2 drivers to drive kids to school, and I want 3 to get your thoughts on that. 4 MR. VALLONE: We totally agree that we 5 need to get there and that we can get there. 6 I think the biggest question is the timeline, 7 which again is not something I'm providing a 8 recommendation on today. It's just things 9 that the private sector could use to help it 10 be a partner for the state in getting there. 11 And as far as the driver shortage 12 goes, and in relation to contract 13 modification, a very intricate point to 14 consider is the churning of contracts. 15 Because without the ability for a district to 16 work with its current operator to transition 17 to electric, forcing that district to go to 18 bid and forcing a situation where the 19 operator could change -- first of all, that's 20 how, you know, it goes today. And that right 21 would be reserved by a district. 22 But there is an inevitable amount of 23 attrition in workforce when a company that's 24 been serving a district for 20 years is no 571 1 longer serving that district. One hundred 2 percent of that workforce does not go with 3 the new operator. And if we see a 5, 10, and 4 15 percent churn in employees in the school 5 bus world over the next -- through 2035, it's 6 a mountain we cannot climb. 7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES: Well, 8 we could be training some in Buffalo right 9 now, because parents are driving their kids 10 to school and being paid for it. 11 I did want to ask you a question about 12 libraries, but I guess I'm going to have to 13 ask you that after this panel shuts down. I 14 see my time has run out. 15 But thank you all for being here. 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 17 We go back to the Senate. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I 19 just have one quick follow-up question for 20 Alli. 21 The question was, do we know what 22 school districts have been doing with the 23 Community School set-asides? 24 MS. LIDIE: Yes, we do have some data 572 1 in terms of the amount of funding that's been 2 spent in different categories. Some of that 3 is specific to Community Schools, putting in 4 Community School directors and bringing in 5 some of those wraparound services. 6 That language is also broad and allows 7 for anything to support academic achievement, 8 and so some of that funding is going to other 9 areas. And I can follow up and send you the 10 breakdown. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: That would be 12 great. If you could follow up with both of 13 us, we'll make sure everyone on the 14 committees gets the material. 15 MS. LIDIE: Yes. 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 17 The Senate's closed. 18 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 19 So there are no more questions for the 20 panel. Thank you for staying with us so 21 late. 22 So the next panel is Panel F: Teach 23 NYS, New York State Catholic School 24 Superintendents, Agudath Israel. 573 1 And Panel G, I'd ask you to start to 2 move down -- the New York Charter School 3 Association, Charter Parent Council, New York 4 City Charter School Center. 5 So if we can start with Teach NYS. 6 MS. ALTFIELD: Thank you, Chairs 7 Krueger, Weinstein, Mayer and Benedetto and 8 distinguished members. Thank you for having 9 me today. 10 It is good to see familiar faces. I 11 brought a lot of you to our schools, and this 12 is an open invitation to the rest of you to 13 come and visit the schools that this funding 14 is supporting. 15 I'm here on behalf of the 16 380 nonpublic school students in our state 17 that attend around 1700 schools. This is 18 about 15 percent of the student population, 19 so it's a big number. 20 I'm here to ask for three things. 21 First is funding for our STEM reimbursement 22 program. The STEM reimbursement program 23 reimburses qualified STEM teachers in our 24 schools, and the Governor has put in a budget 574 1 line of $70 million. Now, while this doesn't 2 fully fund the program, we are very thankful 3 for this increase in her budget and we ask 4 for your support in keeping that $70 million. 5 STEM programs in our schools, this 6 funding has significantly transformed the 7 programs offered in nonpublic schools and is 8 being helped by the funds from this program. 9 The second ask is a new pot of 10 $5 million for an arts and music program to 11 mirror the STEM program. We have seen such 12 improvements in our schools and in the 13 quality of the education through the STEM 14 program that we now would like to start to 15 look at improving the arts and music programs 16 in these schools. 17 The arts and music -- as we know, arts 18 and music fully impact student life, student 19 learning, and this is all to then fully go 20 back into the state when these students have 21 jobs and reenter the workforce. 22 Our third ask is to fully support the 23 universal free lunch program. Just like all 24 other students in the state and all other 575 1 families, they are suffering from inflation 2 and also suffered when the federal funding 3 was cut for this universal free lunch. So we 4 fully support the need to fully support 5 universal free lunch. 6 I don't want to take up too much time, 7 because you have the written testimony in 8 front of you, but again we -- I would like 9 you to carry over the Governor's allocation 10 of $70 million for STEM; a new $5 million pot 11 for arts and music; and universal free lunch 12 for all. Thank you. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 14 Jim? 15 MR. CULTRARA: Sydney, thanks. 16 On behalf of the Catholic schools in 17 your district, but more importantly on behalf 18 of the Catholic school parents in your 19 district, we want to thank you for the many 20 programs and the funding that you provide to 21 our schools that our parents have found 22 incredibly helpful and very important. 23 I don't want my comments, though, to 24 overshadow our gratitude for those programs, 576 1 but let my next comments overshadow my 2 gratitude for those programs. Because that 3 support doesn't come close to meeting the 4 real need, the greatest need of our families, 5 and that is help with paying tuition. 6 We have found that regardless of the 7 support that we're getting, we're still 8 closing Catholic schools, despite the demand. 9 We have waiting lists for our scholarships, 10 yet we don't have enough scholarship money. 11 Our schools don't suffer from a lack 12 of demand. Our tuition-paying families, as 13 you know very well, are sacrificing. So what 14 we're focusing -- what my comments are 15 focusing on now is that we oppose the 16 Governor's proposal to raise the cap to open 17 more charter schools, absent help for 18 tuition-paying families. 19 We are not anti-charter, we are 20 pro-family. But families need a diverse 21 array of schools to choose from. And history 22 has proven to us in New York -- and not in 23 other states where there is tuition 24 assistance, by the way. But history has 577 1 proven in New York that for every charter 2 school that has opened, a Catholic school has 3 closed, and some Lutheran schools and 4 Christian schools and so on, and historically 5 Black independent schools have closed. Some 6 closed and then became charters. Right? 7 That's a matter of history and fact. 8 So our parents are asking if you can't 9 give them tuition assistance that they 10 desperately need. Don't raise the cap and 11 therefore raise their tuition. Don't raise 12 the cap and put more Catholic schools in 13 jeopardy. 14 But I want to say, to our charter 15 school partners in the audience, you can do 16 both. And in doing both, you could actually 17 save money. 18 And as Senator Liu was questioning 19 Chancellor Banks about the class size 20 mandate -- you could actually help the 21 chancellor meet that mandate by providing 22 incentives to put kids into empty seats that 23 do exist. That would be a way to save money, 24 as opposed to spending more money. 578 1 So you can do both, and we urge you to 2 do so. Thank you. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 4 Rabbi Silber. 5 RABBI SILBER: Good evening, 6 everybody. It's good to be back in person 7 again. I am glad to join my distinguished 8 colleagues, Jim and Sydney, as nonpublic 9 school advocates. 10 As Sydney already mentioned, I also 11 have my written testimony. Nonpublic school 12 students make up about 15 percent of the 13 total school population statewide. The 14 schools save the state billions of dollars 15 annually and yet receive less than 2 percent 16 of total education funding. 17 So let me mention some of our funding 18 priorities. Mandated services and CAP is the 19 largest social funding for public schools. 20 The Executive Budget allocates 193 million 21 for the combined '23-'24 MSA and CAP 22 programs. This is the third consecutive 23 budget that MSA and CAP have been funded at 24 this level. 579 1 In my written testimony, which was 2 submitted on Monday -- I subsequently was 3 informed that SED requested a total of 4 $210 million because of the growing concern 5 that the current allocation will not be 6 sufficient to cover all claims. Furthermore, 7 the Executive Budget language states that 8 funds appropriated shall represent the 9 fulfillment of the state's obligation for 10 aid. Meaning that if claims exceed 11 allocation, they will not be paid in full. 12 The state has always been liable for 13 the entire cost, and this language removes 14 that liability. 15 We call upon the Legislature to 16 increase the allocation to the amount 17 requested and to please remove that language 18 and keep the state liability intact. 19 Another budgetary request, as 20 indicated in my written testimony, we 21 increase the NPSE security funding as well as 22 correcting the shortfall in the immunization 23 recordkeeping reimbursement for New York 24 City, Rochester, and for Buffalo. 580 1 We also support the universal school 2 lunch initiative, which provides free 3 breakfast and lunch for all students. 4 Before concluding, let me briefly 5 address an important topic. Now, for a long 6 time, and more recently due in part to an 7 incessant media barrage, there's been an 8 unfair perception -- misperception, I should 9 say -- of Orthodox Jews in general and the 10 schools and yeshivas they attend. This is 11 coming at a time when antisemitism is on the 12 rise. 13 In my written testimony I go into this 14 at some length, and obviously I don't have 15 much time to go into it all, but in an 16 attempt to set the record straight, Agudath 17 Israel has launched a campaign called "Know 18 Us," and this book has some of it. 19 In recent weeks we have launched a 20 media campaign to highlight this initiative. 21 We have a dedicated website at knowus.org as 22 well as a Twitter account. We urge you, go 23 to our site, better educate yourselves. It 24 should be fact-driven, not fiction. 581 1 And again, you're all invited to the 2 schools, and I'm happy to have anyone, any 3 members here, to please, anytime, we'll be 4 happy to arrange for you to visit our 5 schools. 6 Again, thank you for the opportunity. 7 And let's really work together to achieve 8 positive results for all children across the 9 state. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you all, 11 and thank you for waiting. 12 We have Assemblywoman Hyndman. 13 Alicia? 14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: I'm not used 15 to being first. 16 Okay. Thank you very much for your 17 testimony. 18 I understand that you said the 19 Governor put $70 million up from 58 million. 20 Was the $58 million exhausted last time? And 21 how many different institutions across the 22 state applied? 23 And if you could just tell me the -- 24 what is the least amount of students in a 582 1 school in order for a nonpublic school to 2 apply? 3 MS. ALTFIELD: Sure. So the 4 58 million was fully exhausted. Every year 5 it's exhausted. If you were to fully fund 6 the program based on the amount of 7 applications that come in, it would be at 8 $100 million. 9 So 1800 applications came in, and it 10 was prorated at the rate of what is in the 11 pot. So that increase is very much needed 12 because schools are not even getting what 13 they apply for, and some schools are even 14 being turned away. 15 So 1800 or so applications, and every 16 year that number grows. So every year that 17 pot needs to continue to grow. 18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: And that's all 19 over the state, you're saying? 20 MS. ALTFIELD: All over the state, 21 correct. 22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: And how 23 many -- what's the -- is there a criteria, 24 like how many students in the school, to 583 1 apply? 2 MS. ALTFIELD: Sure, so it doesn't 3 matter about the number of students in the 4 school. The criteria is based on the quality 5 of the teacher. So the teacher must be a 6 highly qualified teacher, meaning that they 7 have a master's degree in education in one of 8 the STEM subjects, and they must be a 9 certified teacher. 10 So you can only get reimbursed if you 11 fall under that category as a qualified 12 teacher. 13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Certified by 14 SED. 15 MS. ALTFIELD: Yes. 16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: All right. 17 Thank you very much. 18 MS. ALTFIELD: You're welcome. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Shelley 20 Mayer. 21 SENATOR MAYER: Good evening. Thank 22 you for hanging in here all this time. 23 On the MSA and the Governor's 24 proposal, Rabbi, can you just explain what 584 1 would be the impact on this prorated 2 proposal, which would not be full funding of 3 MSA costs? How would that affect the schools 4 that you represent? 5 RABBI SILBER: So schools are mandated 6 to provide certain services: Testing, 7 attendance taking, pupil data, immunization. 8 And the mandated service is simply a 9 reimbursement for the cost. And there's a 10 complicated formula. There is a formula for 11 schools that's quite sophisticated and a 12 complicated formula they fill out to apply 13 for the reimbursement. 14 But what happens is schools are 15 spending the money because they're mandated, 16 yet they wouldn't get fully reimbursed for 17 fulfilling a state mandate. It's as simple 18 as that. 19 And for 50 years -- this problem goes 20 back to the 1970s -- there was always -- 21 every few years DOB will stick in the 22 language. And we really thank the 23 Legislature -- it came out during the COVID 24 year and did it again, and we thank the 585 1 Legislature for restoring -- for taking the 2 language out and restoring the full 3 reimbursement. 4 So again, we ask that again, to make 5 sure that schools are fully reimbursed. 6 MR. CULTRARA: Senator, if I can add, 7 our schools depend on that to make payroll. 8 SENATOR MAYER: Yes, understood. 9 And this would be the first time that 10 the state didn't agree to pay costs 11 associated with mandatory services that you 12 provide in your schools. Okay. 13 The other thing is, Sydney, I wondered 14 what -- has there been enrollment growth in 15 the schools that you represent over, you 16 know, during the -- like '19 till now, 2023? 17 MS. ALTFIELD: Sure, a lot of 18 enrollment growth. I think a lot also of the 19 need for scholarships because of the pandemic 20 and from prior years also. 21 Within our faiths, faith-based 22 community schools, nonpublic schools, it is a 23 necessity to send your child to one of these 24 schools within our religion, and we do not 586 1 turn students away. So they will raise the 2 money, extend the scholarships to make sure 3 that these students can come. And yes, our 4 schools are growing, thankfully, but it's 5 affecting the bottom line of all of our 6 schools. Because they are making sure that 7 these children get educated within the 8 Jewish system or the Catholic system, 9 whichever it may be, without it being the 10 biggest burden on them, even though it 11 already is a burden. 12 SENATOR MAYER: Jim, I just wondered, 13 in the Catholic school community, 14 notwithstanding your comments about charters, 15 though, what has been the enrollment change 16 in the Catholic school community? 17 MR. CULTRARA: We have now less than 18 200,000 -- fewer than 200,000 students. We 19 had twice as many when I started this 20 position 25 -- 26 years ago. Same number, we 21 had 845 schools, we now have fewer than 420. 22 SENATOR MAYER: Say it again? You had 23 how many? 24 MR. CULTRARA: We had 845 25 years 587 1 ago; we now have 420. 2 Exacerbated, I should say -- the trend 3 started closing in the '60s, 1960s. But 4 clearly it's exacerbated by the creation and 5 expansion of charters. 6 There will be an announcement coming 7 in the next two weeks, but another round of 8 closings attributable to the expansion of 9 charters -- sometimes by adding grades, and 10 others by new schools. 11 SENATOR MAYER: Understood. Thank 12 you. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 14 Assemblyman McGowan. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN McGOWAN: Yes, thank you. 16 I want to thank you all for being 17 here, especially in this late hour of the 18 day. 19 Rabbi, I wanted to ask you, you 20 mentioned, when you were talking about the 21 MSA and the CAP funding, certain language you 22 found troublesome. Can you tell us about 23 that a little more? 24 RABBI SILBER: Yeah. The language 588 1 very simply states -- and I think the exact 2 quote or the exact language says that the 3 amount -- the amount appropriated shall 4 represent fulfillment of the state's 5 obligation. So whatever was appropriated -- 6 now it's 193 million. But in essence, 7 language that kills the whole programs, 8 because they could allocate anything and that 9 would be the extent of what will be funded. 10 Which means -- it essentially makes 11 the program meaningless. Because even now, 12 with the allocation, SEU themselves is 13 concerned that the current allocation will 14 not be sufficient to cover this year's -- the 15 coming year's claims. 16 So certainly that language is in 17 there. It will certainly not be able to 18 cover claims, and again in future years as 19 costs rise. 20 ASSEMBLYMAN McGOWAN: Right. So you 21 talked about a shortfall, you know, 193 -- 22 193 million to 210 million, essentially that 23 being the gap -- 24 RABBI SILBER: Well, this is SED's 589 1 estimate, estimation, based on past claims 2 and patterns, what they anticipate the costs 3 will be. 4 ASSEMBLYMAN McGOWAN: So it's a gap 5 now, but the language you've identified also 6 is forecasting issues moving forward. And 7 that could be -- 8 RABBI SILBER: Yes. 9 ASSEMBLYMAN MCGOWAN: -- not just for 10 this year but for future years. 11 RABBI SILBER: Sure. Once the 12 language is there, that's it. And then 13 again, it will depend -- we're at the mercy 14 of the amount allocated. 15 ASSEMBLYMAN McGOWAN: So then your 16 request would be to remove that language 17 entirely. 18 RABBI SILBER: The language has never 19 really been there. It's been tried, but each 20 time it's put in it's been removed. So we 21 ask that it be removed again. 22 ASSEMBLYMAN McGOWAN: Right. Okay, 23 thank you. 24 RABBI SILBER: Okay. 590 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 2 To the Senate. 3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 4 Senator Jackson. 5 SENATOR JACKSON: Again, let me thank 6 you for coming in and staying the course and 7 listening to all of the testimony of all of 8 the people that are coming up and questions 9 that we put forward to you. 10 RABBI SILBER: Very informative. 11 SENATOR JACKSON: So let me ask a 12 question for the rabbi, if you don't mind. 13 The Department of Education report and 14 the New York Times investigation report found 15 that tens of thousands of students attending 16 city yeshivas receive little or no secular 17 education. And there is a regulatory process 18 underway rolling out over the next two years. 19 How are schools who do not provide 20 substantially equivalent education working 21 right now to get into compliance with the 22 state law 3204 and the newly passed state 23 regulation? 24 RABBI SILBER: Okay, Senator, I'm glad 591 1 you brought that up. 2 First of all, the New York Times -- 3 13 articles since September, the New York 4 Times has an obsession, apparently, with the 5 Orthodox community that -- I hate to say 6 it -- and you go through this book, a lot of 7 it's in here, it's on our website -- a lot of 8 it is based on faulty data, cherry-picked 9 data, innuendo, and interviews that were not 10 done, interviews with certain select people. 11 So let me say that. 12 Schools are -- have many ways of 13 educating children. Some schools are very 14 secular, some schools are more culturally 15 sensitive. We don't control that. Agudath 16 Israel doesn't control any schools. We 17 represent them, we advocate for them, we 18 don't control any schools. We are waiting -- 19 I will say yesterday the State Education 20 Department -- the Regents passed, back in 21 September, new regulations. There's some 22 litigation pending, so we're waiting to see 23 where that comes from. But again, a lot of 24 it has to do with guidance. 592 1 And with the regulations, there's a 2 lot of issues. For example, anyone, even 3 someone without standing, can make a 4 complaint. Even a school, for example, that 5 has a pathway, whether it's a registered 6 school or an accredited school, any 7 complaint, even some without standing, could 8 trigger a whole investigation of that school. 9 SENATOR JACKSON: So, Rabbi, you're 10 saying that you guide the schools, you 11 don't -- you're not the schools yourself. 12 RABBI SILBER: Right, we don't control 13 them. Every school -- they're not 14 monolithic. Every school virtually has their 15 own boards, their own administration. 16 (Overtalk.) 17 SENATOR JACKSON: Well, Rabbi, I say 18 to you as someone that has been an advocate 19 in education, I have heard, I have seen 20 people stand up from the yeshiva communities 21 and say they will go to jail first before 22 someone tells them what they teach in 23 schools. 24 I'm not saying that you can't teach 593 1 your religious texts, but if in fact you're 2 getting state money to do regulatory stuff, 3 it has to be done. So that's what I'm saying 4 overall. If you're receiving state money, 5 you have to do what is supposed to be done. 6 RABBI SILBER: Correct. 7 SENATOR JACKSON: And if not, I've 8 said, loud and clear, if you're not going to 9 comply -- and it doesn't matter if it was 10 anybody else -- cut them off. That's my 11 position. 12 So I just wanted to let you know that, 13 based on what your response was that you're 14 representing the group and not speaking 15 specifically for one yeshiva. 16 RABBI SILBER: Right. Again, you 17 know, I'm -- 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. We're 19 going to cut this off. Senator Jackson's 20 time is up. 21 RABBI SILBER: I'm sorry. Okay. 22 Okay. 23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly, you're 24 okay? Nope, we have more Senators. 594 1 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Okay, sorry. 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Chu. 3 SENATOR CHU: Yes. Good evening, 4 everybody. Thank you for staying this late. 5 This question is regarding the 6 universal free lunch, so maybe three of you 7 can address it. 8 So just -- I would like to get a sense 9 of how many percentage of your student 10 enrollment -- a rough number, it doesn't need 11 to be very specific if you don't have it on 12 hand. Like how many students or a percentage 13 of your students would be qualified under -- 14 if they are enrolled to a traditional public 15 schools, they would be qualified for free 16 lunch? 17 MR. CULTRARA: In the Archdiocese of 18 New York and the Diocese of Brooklyn and 19 Queens, I'm estimating about 80 percent would 20 qualify. 21 And the other dioceses, I can't speak 22 to that, although I will say this. That 23 virtually the vast majority of Catholic 24 schools once upon a time had meal programs 595 1 when it was affordable. And now the -- our 2 administrators tell us that it costs more to 3 operate it than they're getting aid for. And 4 as you know, our schools have no financial 5 margin, and so they've had to drop those 6 programs. 7 Some of them rely on the public 8 school -- or benefit from a partnership with 9 public schools to provide that program. 10 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 11 Rabbi? 12 RABBI SILBER: Yeah, I don't know the 13 exact numbers. Many schools are on CEP, 14 which is the Community -- I forget what it 15 stands for -- but when you get a certain 16 percentage, I think at 63 percent of free and 17 reduced, the entire school gets it. 18 But interestingly, in the Orthodox 19 Jewish community, you don't have rich 20 neighbors and poor neighbors, you have people 21 living in one neighborhood, your next-door 22 neighbors, you could have a millionaire 23 living next to someone who's living on food 24 stamps. So it affects the schools as well. 596 1 And there could be, you know, kids in 2 school bringing gourmet lunches and other 3 kids barely could scrape two things together. 4 So this is very important that -- and we have 5 seen also in schools that unfortunately it 6 becomes a weapon with kids that have better 7 food, use it weaponized to other kids. So 8 it's really important to have that universal 9 lunch that no child should feel, especially 10 in schools where there's a mixture of rich 11 kids and poor kids, no child should feel that 12 they're left out, they're lacking something 13 because they don't have the lunch -- the type 14 of food that the other child has. 15 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 16 RABBI SILBER: And it's very important 17 to have. And especially during -- you know, 18 during the COVID years -- 19 SENATOR CHU: Yes, Rabbi, I 20 need Sydney. Thank you. 21 RABBI SILBER: Yeah, I'm sorry. I 22 keep talking. 23 MS. ALTFIELD: I don't have the exact 24 numbers, but what I will say is that when the 597 1 federal funding was allowing for all students 2 to be participating in this free lunch 3 program because of the COVID pandemic, a 4 majority of our schools were taking advantage 5 of that. 6 And when the rug was pulled from them, 7 all of this -- just the same way that the 8 public schools did, our nonpublic schools are 9 scrambling to figure out what to do next. 10 And right now they're at a standstill of 11 waiting to see what happens here. And it is 12 a big concern, and we hope that this 13 Legislature will carry that. 14 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 16 Senator Liu. 17 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 Rabbi Silber, you were discussing your 19 objections to the series of New York Times 20 articles about some of the Orthodox Jewish 21 schools. Can you give us some more 22 objections? 23 RABBI SILBER: Yeah, I'll give you an 24 example. The New York Times said that -- 598 1 that schools are flush with cash, they 2 received a billion dollars. Now, that 3 billion dollars sounds like a lot of money, 4 and it is, but it's over four years. This 5 year's budget puts $34 billion in one year 6 for education. 7 That billion dollars included COVID 8 relief money, it included transportation, it 9 includes food money. So, you know, it gets a 10 different perception when you struggle to 11 reach over four years that figure of a 12 billion that makes people, oh, take a second 13 look: A billion dollars. So that's one 14 misperception. 15 Another one's corporal punishment. 16 Yes, corporal punishment, there is a zero 17 tolerance policy for corporal punishment. 18 But there've been a dozen, I believe the 19 article said, allegations over five years. 20 At the same time, the Albany Times 21 Union, if you all -- and it was mentioned 22 this morning -- had an article where there 23 were 16,000 complaints in public schools. 24 Too many. Every one is one too many. 599 1 But the perception is that the schools 2 are full of corporal punishment, which is 3 just not the case. There's no tolerance for 4 it, and every instance is too much and 5 shouldn't be tolerated. It's as simple as 6 that. 7 SENATOR LIU: And what about the 8 allegations, the continuing allegations that 9 some of the schools just are not providing an 10 education suitable for today's world? 11 RABBI SILBER: Look, we have to look 12 at these schools, we look at outputs. These 13 schools produce citizens who are well-rounded 14 in all areas -- businesspeople, 15 entrepreneurs, professionals, every walk of 16 life. Family life, communities that are low 17 in crime, low in drug use. The median income 18 is as high or higher than other communities. 19 So those schools are doing something 20 right over these years. 21 MS. ALTFIELD: If I may. 22 The two programs that I spoke about 23 earlier, the STEM reimbursement program and 24 the hopes of this new arts and music program, 600 1 I think debunk a lot of what is said in these 2 articles. 3 In order for these schools that are 4 getting -- and if you look at the list of 5 schools, a lot of these schools are getting 6 this funding. And in order to receive this 7 funding, you must have qualified teachers 8 teaching these subjects. And it is a 9 rigorous application process for them to 10 be -- to send to the State Education 11 Department and -- 12 SENATOR LIU: Are you speaking about 13 some of the schools that Rabbi Silber is 14 talking about? 15 MS. ALTFIELD: Yes. Yes. There are 16 many schools that -- and maybe they aren't, 17 but they're coming to us asking how can we 18 change our education to, one, get this 19 funding? And you know what, you have to 20 change it in a way that you can get this 21 funding by hiring qualified teachers and 22 offering a qualified secular education. 23 So this funding is transforming a lot 24 of these schools. And you can only get it if 601 1 you're doing that. And the perception is is 2 that they're getting all this money if 3 they're not teaching it, but that perception 4 is wrong. They are only getting this money 5 if they are, and a lot of them are. 6 SENATOR LIU: Thank you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 8 Yes, me, thank you. 9 So, Rabbi, there's a recent report 10 that the New York City Board of Education has 11 stopped doing business with 20 firms 12 affiliated with special education funds to 13 yeshivas. I don't know that they're 14 affiliated with Agudath Israel specifically. 15 They all seem to be affiliated with a 16 gentleman named Martin Handler. 17 Do you think that we, the public, 18 should get money back? It was $60 million 19 last year, I'm told. 20 RABBI SILBER: Look, you're talking 21 about one individual. This is not a systemic 22 thing, it's one individual who was accused of 23 something, and I -- you know, again -- 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think there are 602 1 about six individuals and 20 firms accused. 2 RABBI SILBER: Right, I understand 3 that. But this is not -- the State Ed -- the 4 special education system works. People are 5 getting services. 6 If people are doing the wrong thing, 7 they should be prosecuted and that money 8 should be returned. I'm not -- we don't 9 condone anything. 10 You know, every person is entitled to 11 their day in court, and they have presumption 12 of innocence. But certainly if there's found 13 to be wrongdoing, the money should be given 14 back. We have no issue with that. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And are any of 16 these firms affiliated with Agudath Israel? 17 RABBI SILBER: No. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 19 RABBI SILBER: These are private 20 firms, no -- no affiliation. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 22 I think the Senate is done. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: And the 24 Assembly is done. 603 1 Thank you all for being here and for 2 the work you do in the communities. 3 Next we have Panel G: New York State 4 Charter Schools Association, Charter Parent 5 Council, New York City Charter School Center. 6 And if the next panel wants to start 7 making their way down -- I think they are -- 8 New York State Nutrition Association, Healthy 9 School Meals for All New York Kids Coalition, 10 and Niskayuna School District. 11 Someone go first. 12 MS. BENNETT: All right. Good 13 afternoon. My name is Yomika Bennett, I'm 14 the executive director of the New York 15 Charter School Association, a nonprofit 16 organization serving the statewide charter 17 community, which includes more than 18 350 public charter schools serving more than 19 170,000 students and their families. 20 We strongly support removing the limit 21 on the number of charter schools, so we were 22 thrilled to see Governor Hochul's comments 23 and proposal to remove the regional limit and 24 to permanently authorize the reissuance of 604 1 charters. 2 But there is more work to be done. 3 It's time for the state to fully support 4 public charter school education in its 5 policy, its practices, and funding decisions. 6 Increase per-pupil funding for charter 7 schools to match district per-pupil levels, 8 provide facility and transportation funding 9 to charter schools, and allow charter school 10 students equal access to funding and public 11 programs and services, including many of the 12 state-funded and authorized programs that are 13 open to school districts but not to charter 14 students, including My Brother's Keeper, 15 P-TECH, student mental health support, 16 school-based trauma mitigation, extended 17 school day, violence prevention, Teacher 18 Diversity Pipeline, pre-K, BOCES, and more. 19 All these programs exclude charter 20 school students. It's harmful, and it's 21 wrong. The state should not treat charter 22 school students as second-class citizens. 23 Establish a $200 million Education 24 Equity Fund to provide financial support to 605 1 people who open and operate charter schools. 2 The state charter law gives the power to the 3 people to start charter schools and change 4 the trajectory of education and the future of 5 many students, especially Black and brown 6 students. 7 An important goal among many of the 8 Education Equity Fund is to assist and 9 encourage members of historically 10 disadvantaged communities to start public 11 charter schools. The state recently created 12 the $200 million Social Equity Fund to assist 13 members of historically disadvantaged 14 communities to open retail cannabis shops. 15 We urge similar support for the Education 16 Equity Fund. 17 Finally, the public charter school 18 community simply wants good public schools 19 for all students. District schools, charter 20 schools, we want the public education 21 landscape to improve and to transform so good 22 schools flourish and all kids have equal and 23 free access to good schools. 24 Students carry the burden of missed 606 1 education throughout their lives, to their 2 jobs, whether overworked and underpaid or 3 unemployed, substandard housing, inadequate 4 healthcare, and a front seat in the 5 school-to-prison pipeline. More often than 6 not, students from low-income communities and 7 students of color are the ones who are 8 relegated to failing schools. We want to end 9 that now. 10 No more gaslighting families, telling 11 them there's no such thing as family schools. 12 No more school choice shaming for parents who 13 just want the best for their child. No more 14 stopping the promise of a child's future. 15 This is about civil rights. We are here as 16 equity warriors standing up for education 17 equity. Children cannot afford for us to 18 give up the fight for equal access to 19 high-quality schools, so we will not. 20 Thank you for the opportunity to 21 testify. I will answer any questions you 22 have. 23 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 24 MS. FRANKLIN: Good evening. My name 607 1 is Nakia Franklin. I'm the parent of a 2 fourth-grader at Elmwood Village Charter 3 School in Buffalo, New York, and I'm also the 4 community association treasurer as well as 5 the New York State Charter School Parent 6 Council cochair. 7 We are told that access to the 8 American dream begins with education, that 9 education should be accessible, attainable, 10 and equitable to all regardless of race, 11 income, or zip code. I chose Elmwood Village 12 because of the classrooms. Kindergarten 13 through sixth grade have at least two 14 teachers, many of them have three, with no 15 more than 26 children in the room. Where 16 could he get such personal interaction for 17 free? 18 As great as this education has been, 19 it has been hindered by politics and false 20 narratives. The biggest one is that 21 charter-school children are stealing from 22 district children. 23 Many want to limit the number of 24 educational choices, but what are we doing to 608 1 improve the district schools for our 2 community? The district receives all of the 3 funds for our students, but we don't have 4 access to all the services. 5 My fourth-grader is an awesome Lego 6 builder and awesome speaker and will probably 7 be either sitting in one of your seats or an 8 engineer, but because he doesn't have access 9 to BOCES, he will not have the opportunity to 10 try these careers out before he graduates 11 from high school. 12 There is a huge transportation issue 13 in Western New York. I transport my son to 14 and from school because of the bus schedule. 15 If he was to catch the bus, he would be in 16 school 30 minutes before classroom 17 instruction, missing out on valuable rest 18 that he needs to function throughout the day. 19 If he was in a public school, 20 sometimes they are on the bus stops longer 21 than need be. And as you know, Friday we had 22 below-freezing temperatures and the school 23 was canceled. Fortunately his school had 24 remote learning, so he still had instruction 609 1 that day. The district schools did not. 2 Diversity in education not only refers 3 to our students and staff, but the types of 4 school programs that are offered. As the 5 parent of a neurodiverse child, I know that 6 he would benefit from access to coding and 7 engineering-focused programs. 8 Music, art, gym, and recess are all 9 important to education. Band, chorus, 10 sports, and clubs that enhance the school 11 experience should be available to all 12 students. 13 I am urging this body to allow charter 14 schools to receive all of the per-pupil 15 funding so they are able to properly 16 transport, feed, and enhance the lives of our 17 students. Parents deserve to have the 18 options in the types of schools they educate 19 their children in. Because education is 20 limited to the district of your home address, 21 there should be equitable options in all 22 zip codes, not just those with the higher tax 23 brackets. 24 Equitable funding is needed to level 610 1 the playing field for all the children in 2 New York State. 3 Thank you for your time. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 Yes. 6 MR. MERRIMAN: Good evening. 7 James Merriman, head of the New York 8 City Charter School Center. Thank you to the 9 chairs and members for the opportunity to 10 offer a few thoughts. 11 The Governor's proposals to, one, 12 eliminate the geographic subcap while keeping 13 the state cap at 460 and, two, to allow 14 previously revoked charters to be reissued, 15 are sound public policy. They deserve your 16 strong support. 17 Contrary to some of the testimony 18 today, there will be little if any fiscal 19 impact on New York City DOE's budget in the 20 near term -- and far, for that matter. 21 First, since charter school students 22 are funded at a fraction of the amount that 23 NYC DOE spends on its own students, New York 24 City DOE is left with more money per pupil 611 1 when a student leaves for a charter than 2 otherwise would be the case. 3 Moreover, to understand the actual 4 impact of the next few years, you have to 5 understand the likely rate of school 6 openings: 105 schools will not open in 2023. 7 In fact, the number that will open in 2023 as 8 a result, if these proposals passed, is zero. 9 And likely very few in 2024, for that matter. 10 From 1998 to 2023, only 275 charter 11 schools have been opened in New York City, 12 suggesting that at most we can expect 13 probably well less than 10 schools to come 14 online, at earliest in 2025. And likely the 15 number per year in '25 and '26 will be much 16 less given the difficulty of opening a new 17 school and the time needed to bring a school 18 online. That trend may continue. 19 Moreover, these schools will open with 20 a single grade and few students. Thus, for 21 example, the total impact is likely to end up 22 at around $5 million in school year '24-'25, 23 based on a total of five schools with a 24 hundred students each. 612 1 As such, there will be no measurable 2 effect and certainly no harmful one on the 3 department that is being funded at 4 historically high levels and where 5 100 percent of students get 100 percent of 6 Fair Student Funding. 7 Also, I must point out that whereas 8 the Governor proposes a 12 percent increase 9 in Foundation Aid, charter school funding is 10 slated to go up by 3.3 percent. If you 11 actually crunch the numbers and count fairly, 12 charter schools are a bargain for New York. 13 They are not a drain. 14 I urge you to look at these proposals 15 fairly and to take into account parent choice 16 and parent need, especially for low-income 17 parents. 18 Thank you. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 21 We're going to go, for our first 22 questioner, to Assemblywoman Hyndman. 23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN HYNDMAN: Two for two. 24 Thank you for waiting so late to speak 613 1 with us. 2 So, you know, you've heard all of the 3 Big 5, and the common refrain is no more 4 charter schools. They don't want the cap 5 lifted. And your argument is that we are 6 being unfair to our students. And you've 7 heard one of my colleagues felt like they 8 should only basically be in our 9 neighborhoods. 10 What is your pushback on that? 11 Because most of the charter schools are in 12 Black and brown neighborhoods. And if it was 13 always good for education, why isn't it in 14 other neighborhoods? 15 And the second question is that most 16 of the pushback is of the chain charter 17 schools, especially for New York City and 18 collocations. Not that parents don't want 19 choice, because I have a school district 20 where I have I believe five charter schools 21 now, and four of them are in separate spaces, 22 and they're flourishing. The ones where we 23 have collocations are constant problems, 24 where the principals call me because of 614 1 building management issues. 2 And the third thing is, you know, we 3 have the chains, but we don't have a lot of 4 the single charter schools that are run by 5 underrepresented groups. And I think when 6 the cap was lifted, we haven't talked about 7 how do we make sure that when it comes to 8 ownership, direction, supervision, that we're 9 able to do that. 10 And if you could speak to any of those 11 things in my one minute-and-change, I'd 12 appreciate it. Thank you. 13 MS. BENNETT: All right, thank you. 14 Thank you, Assemblymember, for those 15 questions. 16 So listen, I'm going to say that I 17 think there should be a charter school on 18 every corner in every city of this state. 19 I've said it before, I'll say it again. 20 I really want to stress -- right, 21 folks, understand always, right, the history 22 of education for Black folks in this country 23 and in this state. There is a debt to be 24 paid, I will say. There is an opportunity to 615 1 be taken here for leaders, people of color, 2 particularly Black people, to start charter 3 schools, period. To take up that mantle of 4 educating, right, students of all colors, 5 right, all students, all students of color, 6 all races, all creeds, everything. 7 But there is an opportunity here, as 8 my friends from Black would say and point 9 out, particularly in New York City, right, 10 only 8 percent of leaders of color are 11 operating charter schools right now. The 12 student population in New York City for 13 charter schools, 91 percent. 14 And that's something that's known to 15 everyone about charter schools. In every 16 city, the majority of students are students 17 of color. Right? So the idea that there 18 should not be more charter schools for 19 students of color in their communities, 20 right, in communities of color, is outrageous 21 to me. So that's my answer to the question. 22 And in terms of the network, again, 23 going back to the idea of folks sort of 24 claiming the mantle for claiming these 616 1 charters, it's an opportunity for people -- 2 the charter law gives power to the people to 3 start charter schools. So that's an 4 opportunity. 5 Do I dislike, do I not support network 6 charter schools, do I think that only Black 7 and brown people and certain people of color 8 should start charter schools, just so anyone 9 will say that or if this comes up on 10 somebody's Twitter? Absolutely not. I think 11 everyone should do it. I absolutely don't 12 think that when we say that we don't want 13 charter schools, they don't belong, or 14 they're taking money, we are absolutely, 15 positively negating the existence of people 16 of color in this state. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 18 To the Senate. 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 20 Senator Shelley Mayer. 21 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. Thank 22 you -- there we go. Thank you. Thank you 23 all for being patient. 24 Mr. Merriman, I had a question. I 617 1 think we got information from SED that there 2 are 12 -- I believe there are 12 charters 3 that were issued in New York City already 4 that were under the cap but have not opened. 5 Is that your understanding as well? 6 MR. MERRIMAN: It's something like 7 that. 8 SENATOR MAYER: It's something like 9 that. 10 MR. MERRIMAN: Whether it's 10, 11, 11 12 -- somewhere in there. 12 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. So from your 13 perspective as someone who supports the 14 Governor's proposal here, is it your belief 15 that the more charter schools that open, that 16 would be authorized if the Governor's 17 proposal went through, that there's that much 18 demand for all those additional charters? 19 What is your sense of the demand, from 20 your perspective? 21 MR. MERRIMAN: So my sense of the 22 demand is certainly we aren't -- you know, 23 we're not immune from the demographic 24 changes that -- 618 1 SENATOR MAYER: I can't hear you. 2 MR. MERRIMAN: Sorry. We're not 3 immune from the demographic changes in 4 New York City. So the fact is -- and it goes 5 exactly to the point of economic impact -- 6 there aren't going to be that many charters 7 that open. But if we want more charters led 8 by Black and Hispanic leaders and leaders of 9 color, then the only way that's going to 10 happen is if we raise the cap. So that's one 11 very important thing. 12 But I think people are going to look 13 for where they have the ability to attract 14 students to open new schools. 15 SENATOR MAYER: And just as a 16 follow-up, do you have any views about 17 communities within New York City that may 18 have a particularly high saturation of 19 charters currently, as opposed to 20 communities, largely affluent communities, 21 that have fewer charters? 22 As a supporter of expanding the number 23 of charters, is it your -- do you have a view 24 of which communities are appropriate? 619 1 Because some of our colleagues feel their 2 communities are saturated. 3 MR. MERRIMAN: Well, I think the law 4 has a view, not me. And the law says that 5 there should be preference given to schools 6 that operate and attract students who are 7 low-income and have historically been 8 disadvantaged. That's what the law provides, 9 and that's why you see the charter sector 10 that you see. 11 SENATOR MAYER: And lastly, is it your 12 experience that getting a charter through 13 SUNY is a preferred process than going 14 through SED? 15 MR. MERRIMAN: I think it very much 16 depends on the school, the group. I don't 17 think there's a preference. But what I do 18 know is that SUNY has been lauded as a 19 quality authorizer by many groups. 20 So it's -- 21 SENATOR MAYER: But do you -- do you 22 recommend to those who come to you for advice 23 that they go to SUNY for the chartering 24 process? 620 1 MR. MERRIMAN: No, I just lay out what 2 I think are the advantages and disadvantages 3 of each group. 4 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you. Okay, 5 thank you. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 7 Assembly? No more Assembly. 8 We have plenty of Senate. 9 Senator John Liu. 10 SENATOR LIU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 11 Thank you, Ms. Bennett. Thank you, 12 Ms. Franklin, for staying with us so long. A 13 special thank you to Mr. Merriman. I love 14 his name -- the guy always has a smile. 15 (Laughter.) 16 SENATOR LIU: And I'm not going to 17 thank you for staying so long with us because 18 you know the drill. Every year you do this, 19 and you know you're going to be coming to 20 testify in the evening hours. 21 MR. MERRIMAN: Yeah, that's the annual 22 cross to bear. 23 SENATOR LIU: Yes. You know exactly 24 what to expect. 621 1 You know, there are continuing and 2 persistent concerns that charter schools just 3 are not as accountable or as transparent. Is 4 that all hogwash? Is there no basis in that? 5 When the Commissioner of Education of the 6 State of New York says that there's 7 transparency issues, is she dead wrong? 8 MR. MERRIMAN: Yes. 9 SENATOR LIU: Okay. So you provide -- 10 charter schools provide all the information 11 that people in the public want with regard to 12 how the funds are spent, with regard to where 13 outside funds come from? 14 MR. MERRIMAN: I -- I urge you to look 15 at both the law and the regulations that lay 16 out what the annual report to the state 17 requires. 18 SENATOR LIU: The law -- there are 19 many of us sitting up here that believe that 20 the law is inadequate. And in fact we have 21 several different bills to address the 22 inadequacies of the law. So we'll get to 23 that. 24 I have another question for you, which 622 1 is do you think that people who oppose 2 charters are just being spoon-fed by the 3 teachers' union, and we're all just carrying 4 their water and we have no basis or 5 meritorious arguments other than the fact 6 that the teachers' union doesn't like charter 7 schools? 8 MR. MERRIMAN: That's an unfair 9 question. 10 But the answer is I think the UFT is a 11 very strong political force in this state. 12 Think it and know it. 13 SENATOR LIU: And there are no strong 14 political forces backing your organization 15 and the charter school movement? 16 MR. MERRIMAN: Looking around, I don't 17 think we're winning today. 18 SENATOR LIU: Well, I don't know. I 19 mean, you know, it's hard to believe that 20 these families that are supposedly benefiting 21 from charter schools more than traditional 22 public schools are fronting the millions of 23 dollars of campaign contributions that go 24 towards charter school supporters. 623 1 MS. BENNETT: Senator, if I could 2 just -- 3 (Overtalk.) 4 MR. MERRIMAN: Or that the low-income 5 parents in public schools are making the 6 campaign contributions of the UFT. 7 SENATOR LIU: Well, you know that's 8 certainly not true. 9 Let me go to my last point, which 10 is -- you know, you cite some numbers. I 11 mean, the increase in Foundation Aid for 12 New York City is not going to be 12 percent. 13 You must know that. New York City's increase 14 in Foundation Aid is actually going to be 15 barely 2 percent in the increase. Right? 16 MR. MERRIMAN: Yes. 17 SENATOR LIU: Okay. So it's more like 18 2 percent, not 12 percent. 19 And the charter school reimbursement 20 is going to go up 4.5 percent, not the 21 3.3 percent in your testimony. 22 MR. MERRIMAN: I can explain why. 23 You're wrong, it's 3.3. 24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 624 1 SENATOR LIU: Maybe you'll explain it 2 to the next Senator. 3 Thank you. 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 5 Next is Senator Robert Jackson. 6 SENATOR JACKSON: Thank you. 7 Well, good evening, everyone. Thank 8 you for hanging in there. I've noticed 9 you've listened to a lot of questions. 10 I have a couple of questions, if you 11 don't mind. 12 So this question is for Nakia 13 Franklin, the president of the Charter Parent 14 Council. My question is: What source of 15 funding does your charter school where your 16 son attends have outside of state funds, if 17 any? If you know. 18 MS. FRANKLIN: I don't know. I don't 19 know the answer to that question. 20 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. Are you 21 involved in the parents' association of that 22 school? 23 MS. FRANKLIN: Yes. 24 SENATOR JACKSON: And I believe -- are 625 1 you an officer of that parent -- 2 MS. FRANKLIN: I'm the treasurer. We 3 receive -- we raise funds for our students to 4 do things for the students, and enhance, you 5 know, the livelihood of the staff. So we do 6 things -- we raise funds to do things for the 7 students. 8 SENATOR JACKSON: As a parents' 9 association. 10 MS. FRANKLIN: Yes. 11 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay, I understand 12 that. 13 So do you have any meetings with the 14 administration to talk about where they get 15 their funds from, whether or not they're 16 statewide funds or local funds? 17 MS. FRANKLIN: We haven't had -- we 18 haven't had those details, no. 19 SENATOR JACKSON: Okay. Okay. 20 And what about Ms. Yomika Bennett, the 21 executive director of the Charter School 22 Association? Do you know where the money's 23 coming from, whether it's state, local, or 24 billionaires and millionaires? Where is the 626 1 money coming from? 2 MS. BENNETT: Sure. So charter 3 schools receive tuition, what they call 4 tuition funding -- in the law it's called 5 charter tuition, right? That charter school 6 aid is set, there's a formula set in the law. 7 It's based on what the district spent two 8 years ago. It only does -- it only accounts 9 for the district operating expenses. It 10 doesn't include any other aids -- for 11 example, Building Aid or Transportation Aid, 12 which charter schools are not eligible for. 13 So they don't receive any of that. After the 14 fact, they don't receive any of that through 15 the formula. 16 The charter school formula, the result 17 that is produced, is lesser, right, it's 18 lower than the amount per pupil that the 19 district receives. Even though, in 20 Foundation Aid, the charter school students 21 are included in the calculation of 22 Foundation Aid. 23 So when Foundation Aid is calculated, 24 according to the formula, right, the formula 627 1 is that -- 2 SENATOR JACKSON: Every child in the 3 state, no matter who you are. 4 MS. BENNETT: Every child in the 5 district. Every child in the district. 6 SENATOR JACKSON: You know I know 7 that, right? 8 MS. BENNETT: Right, okay. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MS. BENNETT: So every child in the 11 district is included in the Foundation Aid. 12 But what comes back to the charter school 13 student -- 14 SENATOR JACKSON: I have another 15 question, if you don't mind. 16 MS. BENNETT: -- by tuition is less 17 than that. So they don't get the full credit 18 for being counted in the first place. 19 SENATOR JACKSON: I don't need you to 20 go into the details, I just asked if -- 21 MS. BENNETT: But I will -- to your 22 question, the result of that is -- 23 SENATOR JACKSON: Well, the question 24 is -- I have a question, so if you don't mind 628 1 answering my question -- 2 MS. BENNETT: -- that they do have to 3 rely on philanthropy. 4 SENATOR JACKSON: If you don't mind me 5 asking my question. 6 MS. BENNETT: Yeah. Sure, sir. 7 SENATOR JACKSON: Do charter schools 8 have the same population as public schools? 9 I'm talking about English language learners, 10 children with disabilities, special needs. 11 Is that -- do you know if that is a fact? 12 Because I'm hearing also -- and I know 13 that the amount of children with different 14 abilities are not the same as public schools. 15 MS. BENNETT: So as you know, right -- 16 could I answer that or -- 17 SENATOR JACKSON: No, you can continue 18 like would you continue with me. 19 MS. BENNETT: Okay. All right. 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: No, no, no. 21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Actually you 22 can't. 23 (Laughter; overtalk.) 24 SENATOR JACKSON: I understand that. 629 1 I understand that. She was like insisting to 2 going forward. 3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You can get back 4 to him. 5 MS. BENNETT: Well, usually you let 6 her answer. 7 SENATOR JACKSON: That's okay. Go 8 ahead. 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry. 10 MS. BENNETT: No problem. 11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: We're going on to 12 Senator -- 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: No, no. We 14 have an Assembly -- 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, I'm sorry, I 16 didn't realize. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. 18 Assemblywoman Peoples-Stokes. 19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES: Thank 20 you, Madam Chair. And thank the presenters 21 for being here today. 22 I would say that, you know, charter 23 schools are a choice. This is about a 24 choice. And I quite frankly -- just for full 630 1 disclosure, there has not been a kid in my 2 family, including one now that's in the third 3 grade, that didn't go to a charter school and 4 graduate from a charter school. That's 5 because their parents, including myself, made 6 that choice. 7 Now, I won't say that there are not 8 some good, very good public schools in 9 Buffalo. There are. But there are some 10 horrible ones as well. And they are allowed 11 to continue. And they're allowed to be -- 12 everybody still gets paid, everything is 13 going along just fine. But there are 14 children coming out of them who are not quite 15 prepared. 16 Now, I will be honest, I do think that 17 the resources that charter schools distract 18 from traditional publics are impactful. And 19 they do hurt those kids that are left, whose 20 parents don't make that choice to move them 21 to another school. It impacts them. 22 And so I think that the funding should 23 be separated. And so I have carried a bill 24 in the past, and I'm going to keep carrying 631 1 it until we make this happen. It's a choice. 2 People should have that choice. And we 3 should not take it away from them because 4 some people don't think it should be there. 5 I think we should keep it in place. 6 And by the way, there have been 7 charters in my district who did not meet 8 their contractual requirements for five 9 years, and they came to me with all sort of 10 excuses on why they should be able to 11 continue. No, you shouldn't. You agreed to 12 do this, and if this commitment in five 13 years, you didn't do it, so you're out. 14 If only we could do that for some 15 traditional publics. Because there are some 16 traditional publics who do not produce a good 17 student population. 18 And I support both. I think both have 19 a place. But I think the funding stream 20 should be separated. I'm going to continue 21 working on that, and I think that should be 22 the direction that we all go. It's an 23 opportunity for a choice. Everybody should 24 have a choice. 632 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Please don't make 2 noise in the audience. 3 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate. Yes. 4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 5 Now Senator Iwen Chu. 6 SENATOR CHU: Thank you, Madam Chair. 7 I'll come back to you, Ms. Bennett. 8 First I would like to ask James, see 9 if you can help me understand. Do you have 10 any percentage number to show the New York 11 City students enrolled in charter school 12 system, what's their percentage for their 13 math and ELA to meet the proficiency rate? 14 MR. MERRIMAN: You know, I should know 15 it, and I don't. We will get that for you. 16 And if you ask Yomika her question, 17 I'll look it up right now. 18 SENATOR CHU: Sure. Then let me go 19 back to Ms. Bennett. 20 Just -- I would like to have the same 21 question like Senator Robert Jackson had. Do 22 you have any percentage to address our 23 special needs kids in your -- statewide? 24 MS. BENNETT: I don't have the 633 1 percentages. I will try to get that back to 2 you. 3 I will say that parents -- this is a 4 choice, so the families choose charter 5 schools. It's not the other way around. You 6 have to register for a charter school. If 7 you're over -- if there's more registration 8 requests than there are seats available, it's 9 up to a lottery, and that lottery needs to be 10 random and it needs to be, you know, sort of 11 open and monitored. 12 You cannot decide you're going to take 13 this student over this student. And in fact, 14 in the law there is an order of preference. 15 First the district students have to be 16 preferenced, right, and, you know, so -- 17 they're -- you're nodding, so you could get. 18 SENATOR CHU: Yes. 19 MS. BENNETT: So charter schools can't 20 choose their students. I've not met a 21 charter school leader that said, Boy, I 22 really would like to choose my students. 23 They welcome all the students who come 24 in the door because they understand they are 634 1 public schools and they are dedicated to the 2 education of students. 3 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. I just would 4 like to share my personal experience. 5 My daughter right now is in high 6 school, but since she was in first grade, 7 every year I receive enrollment welcome 8 letters from different charter schools, which 9 I did not apply. So it's more than just an 10 application system, I believe. 11 And, James, do you have the answer? 12 MR. MERRIMAN: So you asked about just 13 ELA and math proficiency? 14 SENATOR CHU: Yes. 15 MR. MERRIMAN: It's about 63 percent, 16 compared to 45 percent for the district 17 overall. 18 And then ELA, it's -- I've got to add 19 two numbers -- 57 percent versus 47 percent 20 in ELA. 21 In terms of special ed you asked 22 about, in New York City basically we have 23 almost the same numbers, percentagewise, of 24 special education students that the district 635 1 does. ELL, there's still a bit of a gap, but 2 it's risen by 39 percent in the last two 3 years. And that's because over 101 students 4 have a preference for ELLs in their lottery. 5 SENATOR CHU: Thank you. 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 7 And now to close, Senator Jabari 8 Brisport. 9 SENATOR BRISPORT: (Mic off.) Thank 10 you, Madam Chair. 11 And thank you all, panelists, for 12 being here tonight. 13 I'll start with Ms. Bennett. I know 14 you said you'd never met a principal at a 15 charter school who wanted to choose their 16 students. I invite you to come to -- 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Is your light 18 on, Jabari? 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Is your light on, 20 Jabari? Make sure you can hear, we can hear. 21 SENATOR BRISPORT: That's not working. 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Grab another one 23 near you. 24 SENATOR BRISPORT: Is it? Testing, 636 1 testing. Can you hear me now? 2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yup, that's it. 3 Start again. 4 SENATOR BRISPORT: Start my clock 5 again? 6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 7 SENATOR BRISPORT: Well, I'll just 8 repeat it for the mic. But Ms. Bennett, I 9 heard you say earlier you've never met a 10 charter school principal who wanted to choose 11 their students. So I invite you to tour 12 Success Academy-Fort Greene in my district, 13 which maintained a got-to-go list of students 14 they wanted to kick out. 15 But my question is for the entire 16 panel. It's about funding. Do any of you 17 know, in total, New York charter schools, how 18 much they hold in cash reserves? 19 MR. MERRIMAN: I don't. 20 SENATOR BRISPORT: Okay. I saw a 21 report from a few years ago saying that there 22 were hundreds of millions of dollars in cash 23 reserves for -- 24 MS. BENNETT: I do know that charter 637 1 schools do need philanthropy to run their 2 schools, to build their schools, to maintain 3 their schools, because they do not receive 4 enough money through school aid, charter aid, 5 to do that. 6 So while I don't know what their 7 reserves are or if they have reserves, I know 8 that they do need money and rely on 9 philanthropy for that. 10 SENATOR BRISPORT: Okay. Well, the 11 reason I bring up that question is because 12 traditional public schools are limited to an 13 unrestricted fund balance of no more than 14 4 percent of their budgets. 15 And you spoke a lot in your 16 testimonies about equality between 17 traditional public schools and charter 18 schools. Would you support if charter 19 schools were also restricted in their cash 20 reserves to no more than 4 percent of their 21 budget? 22 MS. BENNETT: Right now in the state, 23 the state spends $76 billion on education. 24 Right? There are 2.1 million students. 638 1 That's about $38,000 per student. I'm 2 guessing that the district schools, in terms 3 of the reserves, right, have much more money 4 in the bank in the first place, receive much 5 more money if it's $38,000 per. And charter 6 schools, I think the highest per-pupil 7 tuition in the state is downstate on 8 Long Island, about $22,000. New York City is 9 about $17,000. And upstate you see numbers 10 about $10,000 per student. 11 SENATOR BRISPORT: Do you think it's 12 fair that the public schools can be 13 restricted in their separate funding while 14 charter schools can receive unlimited 15 funding, tens of millions of dollars, from 16 private-sector actors like Michael Bloomberg, 17 with the goal of privatizing education? 18 MS. BENNETT: As I said, right now 19 there's $76 billion spent in the state. 20 There's 700 school districts. There's only 21 350 charter schools. Right? So charter 22 schools already start out as the smallest 23 sector receiving the least amount of funds. 24 Right? 639 1 In terms of whether or not they have 2 reserves, that's a decision that was made by 3 the Legislature a long time ago. And those 4 factors that went into that decision are 5 probably things that we don't have time to 6 talk about, I certainly don't know about, and 7 would love to be able to see what are those 8 factors that made the state or required the 9 state to make that decision all those many 10 years ago. 11 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you. 12 And my last question is about 13 saturation. I represent around 20 to 14 30 charter schools, around 10 percent of 15 New York City's population. My question 16 is -- and I have parts of my district where 17 the ratio between public schools and charter 18 schools is nearly one-to-one, parts of 19 Bed-Stuy. 20 My question is, you know, you speak a 21 lot about charter schools performing -- 22 public schools are, you know, having better 23 education. Why is it that richer, whiter 24 communities are not clamoring for them, then? 640 1 MS. BENNETT: I think part of that's 2 the law. And I think part of that is -- 3 could be the toxic nature of the narrative 4 around charters all these years. 5 I just entered the charter community 6 about three years ago, working at the 7 association. I was shocked, disappointed, 8 dismayed at this us-versus-them mentality 9 over this, of the idea that there was some -- 10 something wrong with the students, that sort 11 of left behind -- all this stuff about 12 charters stealing money and the kids -- what 13 about the kids left behind. 14 There are none left behind. No one's 15 broken. Everybody in this together -- 16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, I do 17 have to cut this off. You're more than 18 welcome to follow up with the Senator 19 afterward. Thank you. 20 The Senate is closed. So to speak. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So thank you 22 for being here and for staying with us 23 throughout all this long day. 24 MR. MERRIMAN: Thank you. 641 1 MS. BENNETT: Thank you for the time. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Next we have 3 Panel H: New York State Nutrition 4 Association, Healthy School Meals for All 5 New York City Kids Coalition, and the senior 6 school lunch director from the Niskayuna 7 Central School District. 8 And the remaining Panel I, if you're 9 part of -- if you're a speaker signed up to 10 be a witness in the final panel, please make 11 your way down to the front of the hearing 12 room. Thank you. 13 So please begin. Remember, three 14 minutes. Wait, before they begin, put the 15 clock at three minutes. 16 So remember, the remaining folks, your 17 testimony has been distributed to all of the 18 members. Please don't read it. And keep an 19 eye on the clock. Thank you. 20 MR. KENNEALLY: I'd like to thank 21 everyone for the opportunity to speak today. 22 My name is Patrick Kenneally. I am a chef 23 and school lunch director. 24 And if, years ago when I was in 642 1 culinary school, you told me I'd be giving 2 testimony at a joint legislative hearing, I 3 would have thought you were crazy. But the 4 work of the school lunch professionals is 5 some of the most rewarding work I've been 6 doing. 7 So I'm here today to represent the 8 New York State School Nutrition Association. 9 We're an association of about 3500 members 10 across the state, with the goal of ensuring 11 that all students have access to healthy 12 breakfast and lunch and reducing food 13 insecurity in our schools. 14 So the issue we are facing is that 15 with the ending of federal pandemic waivers, 16 numerous schools lost the ability to offer 17 free meals to students. That has created an 18 increasing student debt issue in our school 19 districts. New York State has an anti-meal 20 shaming policy, so we never refuse a meal to 21 a student, and they're allowed to charge a 22 reimbursable meal. But at the end of that 23 school year, if there is debt, the school 24 district itself has to fully fund that in our 643 1 school lunch program. 2 It is creating issues across the 3 state. One of the school districts I 4 represent is a small rural school -- with an 5 enrollment of 880 students, we're looking at 6 $18,000 in student debt this year that the 7 school will have to cover the cost. 8 We have issues with our free and 9 reduced income level as it stands. A family 10 of four making $51,400 does not receive free 11 meals in schools -- and that's not even a 12 living wage. So those families are forced to 13 decide do they put food in their refrigerator 14 at home, do they fill their gas tanks to get 15 to work, or do they pay their school lunch 16 bills. 17 We also have enormous stigma attached 18 to the free and reduced meal policy. There's 19 also stigma attached to the SNAP outreach for 20 families. It is an extremely big issue in 21 rural districts, where they're very proud 22 working people. So by not filling out the 23 free and reduced lunch application, they 24 don't qualify for free meals potentially in 644 1 school. By not filling out SNAP information, 2 the district does not get any information 3 that could go toward them becoming a CEP 4 district and providing free meals in the 5 whole district. 6 We also have an issue where there are 7 districts that do qualify for the Community 8 Eligibility Provision but they don't meet 9 that magic 62.5 percent ISP number, so 10 they're federally reduced at an extremely low 11 rate which makes it not financially feasible 12 for the district to provide the free meals. 13 A universal meal program in New York 14 State would alleviate all of this. It would 15 create an equal playing field in our 16 cafeterias for all students. It is my 17 opinion as a chef, the cafeteria should be 18 the funnest place in a school building. It's 19 a place where kids can work with -- they can 20 meet with their friends, relax, and enjoy a 21 meal. 22 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: Thank you, Chairs 23 Weinstein, Krueger, and committee members for 24 the opportunity to testify before you today. 645 1 My name is Jessica Pino-Goodspeed. I 2 am testifying today on behalf of the Healthy 3 School Meals for All New York State Kids 4 Coalition. We represent over 250 5 anti-hunger, education, health, agriculture, 6 labor, equity-focused organizations across 7 New York State who have come together to 8 advocate for New York State to establish and 9 fund a permanent, statewide, free school 10 meals program. 11 As you've heard today many times, 12 throughout the pandemic federal waivers 13 allowed schools to offer free meals to all 14 their children. That federal funding expired 15 at the start of the school year and has had 16 devastating impacts on students, families, 17 and schools across the state. Most 18 immediately, 726,000 kids across New York 19 lost access to free school meals. 20 This was amid inflation driving 21 grocery store prices to historic highs, and 22 has really hit families and schools 23 especially hard. About 2,000 schools in 24 New York reverted back to needs-testing 646 1 children for free school meals, leaving far 2 too many children behind, including, like 3 Patrick said, families who are earning less 4 than a living wage but still not qualifying 5 for free school meals. Even children who 6 qualify for free school meals opt out of the 7 program when that's tied to income and it's 8 perceived as only for those low-income kids. 9 Rural schools and suburban schools 10 were hit especially hard by this loss as 11 well. They're disproportionately impacted. 12 Their urban counterparts are able to leverage 13 federal provisions that allow them to offer 14 free meals, but these smaller suburban 15 schools and rural schools are left behind. 16 New York can level the playing field, 17 and we know what works. We were able to 18 pilot a statewide universal policy through 19 federal funding throughout the pandemic. The 20 results were clear. Hunger declined, former 21 students ate breakfast and lunch at schools, 22 supporting their learning and development, 23 families benefited by grocery store savings 24 amid rising food costs, schools no longer had 647 1 to use valuable resources to address unpaid 2 school meal debt. 3 A robust body of research underscores 4 how important school meals are. When 5 children eat school meals, it improves their 6 attendance, it reduces tardiness, improves 7 test scores in spelling, reading and math. 8 It also supports students' physical and 9 mental health. These benefits make clear 10 that hunger not only puts children at a 11 disadvantage, it undermines investments in 12 education, including the state's historic 13 Foundation Aid funding. 14 So while this funding is critical, it 15 is separate from school meal budgets. And 16 New York schools need both investments in 17 order to support student success. 18 We urge the Legislature to adopt this 19 proposal in its final budget to expand free 20 meals to over 726,000 kids across New York 21 and level the playing field for the remaining 22 2,000 schools unable to offer free meals to 23 all their students. 24 We strongly believe that, like 648 1 textbooks and transportation, school meals 2 should be an inherent part of their education 3 in New York. Thank you. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 Yes. 6 MS. BATES: Good evening, and thank 7 you, chairs and committee members, for 8 allowing me to testify. 9 My name is Megan Bates, and I'm here 10 today testifying as a school lunch director 11 for your support of healthy school meals for 12 all. 13 I wrote my testimony not only as a 14 school lunch director, but also as a parent. 15 It wasn't that long ago that I was a single 16 mom having to decide whether bills got paid 17 or gas was in the car. I can't imagine what 18 it would feel like now, having to chase meal 19 debt in support of school meals. 20 It breaks my heart to have to call 21 these parents and families and chase meal 22 debt day after day, calling and calling. It 23 also breaks my heart to run a program that I 24 can't reinvest in because I don't have the 649 1 funds to do so. 2 I'm not sure if you're aware, but the 3 last time that the state changed the 4 reimbursement rate for school meals was back 5 in 2007, and they actually decreased the 6 funding for free and paid students. I'm also 7 not sure if you're aware, but as a mom -- and 8 I do the grocery shopping in our house -- 9 that the cost of groceries has gone up 10 11.8 percent since December of 2021. That 11 means that we're not increasing the funding 12 for our programs, but the cost of food and 13 labor and supplies is going through the roof 14 for us. 15 As school meal programs, we just can't 16 survive. We're asking for your support, 17 please, to provide these meals for our 18 students so that they can learn. We have 19 spent our entire day here, since 9:30 this 20 morning, talking about education and how kids 21 need to learn, what tools can we give them to 22 learn, how can we increase libraries, 23 technologies, school buses. 24 None of that matters if they're hungry 650 1 when they get to school. If they are hungry, 2 they can't learn, they're not taking anything 3 in. So please, I am begging you to support 4 healthy school meals for all students in 5 New York State. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I think you 7 kind of said it all on these for the 8 Assemblymembers. 9 Senator Mayer, I believe. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Mayer. 11 SENATOR MAYER: (Inaudible; mic off.) 12 But one, you know, thank you for being 13 here to advocate on this most important 14 issue. I'm sure all of us support this 15 concept. 16 Just getting into the details to the 17 question I asked earlier, if the school 18 district is eligible for community 19 eligibility, gets rid of this FRPL, filling 20 out a form properly -- which we all 21 acknowledge is a problem -- why aren't they 22 participating? Can you explain? 23 And what can we do to facilitate that 24 so that part of this cost is borne by the 651 1 federal government? 2 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: That's a great 3 question. 4 So we're lucky to have such passionate 5 school nutrition directors. I'm honored to 6 be with them today. Almost 92 percent of 7 eligible schools are participating in the 8 Community Eligibility Provision. Throughout 9 the pandemic we saw 100 schools additionally 10 come on, even while they were getting that 11 federal reimbursement. 12 So really we're at about 300 schools 13 statewide that remain eligible for community 14 eligibility, but at far too low of a rate 15 where they can make that sustainable in their 16 school districts. 17 Rural schools especially in New York 18 are adopting community eligibility at very 19 low costs -- local districts like Saratoga 20 City Schools, not necessarily a rural school, 21 who is taking COVID funding and making those 22 programs whole. So schools are trying to 23 really be creative with very limited funds to 24 make it happen. 652 1 But the remaining CEP schools that are 2 eligible and not participating are those who 3 need to come up with those local dollars. 4 SENATOR MAYER: Just what is the 5 percentage that the community's eligibility 6 covers compared to what is not covered? 7 You're saying the district basically can't 8 afford to cover their share. 9 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: So a school is 10 eligible at 40 percent ISP. So those are 11 students that are automatically qualified for 12 free school meals. 13 SENATOR MAYER: Right. 14 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: And the 15 62.5 percent is the percentage where they get 16 full reimbursement. So that's the range 17 there. 18 It's difficult to say at what exact 19 cost where a school can be made whole, 20 because costs vary throughout the state so 21 much per plate. So it's -- it's hard to say 22 what that magic number is. 23 SENATOR MAYER: I understand. But if 24 your school has 45 percent eligible and so 653 1 you're getting a lesser reimbursement rate, 2 is it 50 percent of the cost of the food 3 or -- approximately? 4 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: Approximately. 5 So it's a federal factor of 1.6. 6 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. 7 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: So it's that 8 40 percent times 1.6, is that -- 9 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. So in those 10 schools that are eligible for this federal 11 money and they elect not to spend money on it 12 because they don't have it, or whatever -- 13 notwithstanding that we've given every 14 district additional money -- is there 15 anything we can do to incentivize to make up 16 that balance there, as opposed to having the 17 state fully fund a portion of it, or all of 18 it, when some of it can be borne by the 19 federal government? 20 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: So a part of this 21 policy is making -- is fully leveraging the 22 Community Eligibility Provision. So it would 23 add that cost by adding a state supplement 24 for that. 654 1 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. Thank you. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 3 Assemblywoman Simon. 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Hi. Thank you 5 so much for your testimony. 6 You know, a few years ago we passed a 7 bill that prohibited lunch shaming. And 8 you're talking a lot about the shame that 9 people feel about the need for meals. I'm 10 assuming everybody knows that they're -- 11 you're not allowed to shame students about 12 lunch and you're not allowed to sue parents 13 if you're not getting that fee. 14 So what do you see as things that we 15 can change? Is it just about giving the 16 schools more money to participate more fully? 17 I mean, I'm not sure how -- what we can do to 18 fix it. 19 You know, the problem with 20 legislation -- you can pass a law, it doesn't 21 mean people follow it. Right? So what can 22 we do to help with this? Because I'm very 23 frustrated by the situation, I assume my 24 colleagues are as well, and we did try to fix 655 1 this. 2 So, any ideas? Speak frankly. 3 MS. BATES: So it's a very tricky 4 question. And unfortunately, you know, it 5 really does come down to funding. We 6 can't -- you know, if -- without the funding, 7 I can't do Farm-to-School. I can't get 8 staff. I mean, I'm struggling as a director 9 to get staff in. I went to a neighboring 10 district today to help, because they 11 didn't -- I spent my day cooking today 12 because they didn't have a cook. It wasn't 13 my district, but I love what I do, so I 14 headed down there. 15 It really comes down to funding for 16 us, unfortunately. You know, we spend a lot 17 of time with State Ed and Child Nutrition and 18 trying to come up with creative ideas, and 19 they've been phenomenal in giving us programs 20 for training for our staff. But if I can't 21 get staff in the door because I can't afford 22 to pay them a wage that's near my other 23 districts, you know, it just doesn't make it 24 work, unfortunately. 656 1 MS. PINO-GOODSPEED: And I can add, 2 you know, I'm also a mother of a 3 second-grader. And although it is not in 4 compliance with the law, she is told when she 5 has a low balance on her account. So 6 while it's -- it is an imperfect system where 7 we have certain families that need to 8 allocate funds in order to do that. 9 Also, with school breakfast, it 10 presents a specific challenge too. Many 11 rural schools keep their kids on buses. So 12 if you want to get breakfast, you can get off 13 that bus and eat breakfast. But especially 14 as kids get older, we see participation 15 decline when that stigma and awareness is 16 heightened. And so kids have to overtly 17 identify themselves and get off that school 18 bus to access that meal. 19 So as kids get older, they choose to 20 socialize instead of really putting 21 themselves out there. 22 So it is an imperfect system. We know 23 that through community eligibility. We've 24 seen that over 10 school years now roll out, 657 1 and we've seen schools change the culture 2 around school meals and really end that 3 connection to income for that family, and so 4 really disconnecting who should have meals. 5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Okay. Thank 6 you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 8 Senate? 9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Tedisco. 10 SENATOR TEDISCO: Thank you very much. 11 And thank you all for hanging in here 12 and staying the course, and for your advocacy 13 for nutrition and dietary care. 14 Now, Megan, the one thing I don't 15 understand here is you come from the place 16 where all good things emanate from. I can't 17 understand why this group wasn't in the first 18 two tiers, because you come from the greatest 19 Senate district in the State of New York, the 20 44th Senatorial District. Now, that happens 21 to be my senatorial district. 22 (Laughter.) 23 SENATOR TEDISCO: And I think we have 24 to do this in reverse next time. 658 1 But I want to seriously thank you for 2 the hard work you provide -- the advocacy for 3 this important issue, the tremendous 4 educational product that comes out of the 5 community, the Niskayuna community -- and let 6 you know, but you probably already know this, 7 nobody knows better the impact of the 8 inability to do the job as an educator than 9 an educator themselves when they are trying 10 to teach a kid whose stomach, a girl or boy, 11 is grumbling and you know they haven't had 12 that breakfast, you know they're probably not 13 going to get a lunch. 14 We're spending billions of dollars for 15 the most important part of the future of our 16 kids. They're our future. Their education 17 is their future. They can't receive it, they 18 can't concentrate on it if they have dietary 19 concerns and needs and hunger. I mean, you 20 don't have to sell that, I don't think, to 21 anybody on this dais, Senate or Assembly 22 person. 23 Some way, somehow, we have to make 24 sure that they get their meals in New York 659 1 State. We're going to be severely derelict 2 in our duty. If it's federal and state 3 money, whatever it is, that's an important 4 product. We shouldn't be investing billions 5 of dollars in our educational system for the 6 future of our kids if they don't have the 7 ability to concentrate and learn, many of 8 them. 9 So thank you for the message you give 10 us, and I think we have an obligation to work 11 hard to make that happen. And I want to ask 12 you one last question. What do you think of 13 chocolate milk? 14 MS. BATES: As a mom? I like it 15 because my kid likes it. 16 (Laughter.) 17 MS. BATES: But on a serious note, you 18 know, having chocolate milk in schools -- the 19 kids are drinking milk. Yes, it's flavored, 20 and yes, there's a little bit of sugar in it, 21 but they're drinking it. 22 SENATOR TEDISCO: That's it. 23 MS. BATE: I can't tell you how many 24 kids would bypass it if it was just white. 660 1 SENATOR TEDISCO: We had Commissioner 2 Ball at one of the elementary schools in 3 Niskayuna, I forget which one it was, but 4 they had chocolate milk there, and he's very 5 supportive of that, of having chocolate milk. 6 In fact, he pointed out that a lot of 7 athletes, after they work out, they take a 8 good shot of chocolate milk and it brings 9 their muscles back together. So not too 10 much, not over the top, but I think it's 11 okay. Thank you. 12 MS. BATES: Thank you. 13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 14 I think I'm the last senator. Oh, no, 15 Robert Jackson got there first. 16 Senator Robert Jackson. 17 SENATOR JACKSON: The second-best 18 senatorial district, the 44th. 19 I need to thank you because you've 20 been here since 9:30. And I've been here 21 since a little bit earlier than that, but not 22 too much. And I say this, you're in it for 23 the long haul, because what you're doing, 24 you're working for the people, to try to make 661 1 sure they have enough food to eat. 2 I know what it is to wake up Saturday 3 in New York City and my building didn't have 4 heat and hot water and it was 4 degrees. 5 Your body is not the same. And if children 6 don't have food, they're going to eat candy 7 and junk as much as possible, because to them 8 that food at least is getting in their 9 stomach. 10 So whatever Jim has to do to make sure 11 that the money's in the budget -- 12 SENATOR TEDISCO: Pick his pockets. 13 SENATOR JACKSON: -- he's going to 14 fight like hell. 15 But no, I wanted to thank you for 16 staying for the long haul. But you're not 17 the last panel. The last panel is next. So 18 they deserve all the praise like you. 19 I wanted to say that to you because 20 it's not easy when you're asking, you know, 21 legislators that have been tired all day and 22 all this: Don't forget the school lunch 23 programs so that everybody can have food to 24 eat. 662 1 I looked up online what is the average 2 salary for your city, and it said about 3 $68,000, something like that. And I'm saying 4 to myself, then why is it so difficult to get 5 the people to fill out the forms so you can 6 get reimbursed for the money? And so that's 7 something that we have to somehow get, you 8 know, and make sure that they do that, how 9 important it is. Because then, you know, we 10 won't have to find the money elsewhere in the 11 budget, we don't have to cut certain places 12 to pay that money so that everyone can eat. 13 Jim is going to work on it, and I 14 support him. 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 16 Assembly. 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Assemblyman 18 Manktelow. 19 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you, 20 Chairwoman. 21 Just an odd question, maybe, about 22 nutrition. I know I have grandchildren in 23 school that I go to have lunch with them. 24 They love chocolate milk. Absolutely, I 663 1 agree with you, Megan, that if there's 2 chocolate milk there, whole chocolate milk, 3 they're going to drink it. Absolutely. 4 But one of the things that I see is a 5 lot of the food that's served ends up in the 6 trash can. It's not a pretty meal sometimes. 7 What can we do to -- to spice it up? You 8 know, how McDonald's and fast food people, 9 they always are spicing up the food. What 10 can we do to spice up the nutrition part of 11 it so that children want to eat it all, or a 12 good portion of it, and make it sound or look 13 like it's something that's totally 14 beneficial? 15 And I know as a child I didn't eat 16 everything on my plate, for sure. But 17 100 percent we have to make sure these 18 children are fed. But if we serve them food 19 and they're only eating one-third of it, 20 we're wasting two-thirds of it, so we're 21 wasting two-thirds of the money. 22 And what can we do to spruce it up, 23 maybe cut costs a little bit where they're 24 getting a nutritional meal with a spin on it, 664 1 and -- and maybe this isn't -- we can't 2 answer that all today, but just something to 3 think about. And just your thoughts on that. 4 MR. KENNEALLY: That's one of the 5 reasons that, you know, I came into this 6 sector as a chef, was I saw my kids not 7 participating. So I kind of, you know, 8 wanted to jump in. 9 You know, historically school 10 nutrition is kind of a heat-and-serve. But 11 across New York, we're coming up with scratch 12 recipes to increase like cooking real 13 New York products. But we run into the issue 14 like with defunding. I'd love to be cooking 15 scratch food in all my schools, but I have so 16 much time I have to spend in the office 17 calling families. 18 I'm a shared director between four 19 different school districts. So one of my 20 school districts, I'm only there one day a 21 week. I spend that day printing out debt 22 letters and calling families when I could be 23 in the kitchen teaching new cooking 24 techniques to my staff. You know, working on 665 1 relationships with New York State vendors, 2 increasing our Farm-to-School program. But 3 unfortunately, because we only -- we have 4 such an administrative burden that we can't 5 focus on the plate presentation. 6 But what we are doing is looking at, 7 you know, not opening No. 10 cans of canned 8 fruit -- using real fruit, so the kids want 9 to eat it. If you are using a prepared item, 10 it's sealed, so the student can take it home 11 with them, so it's not just wasted in the 12 garbage can. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Anything else? 14 MS. BATES: I think Patrick spoke 15 wonderfully to that. 16 And, you know, it's also about 17 creating relationships with directors and, 18 you know, being able to share ideas. And 19 that's -- you know, Patrick and I are both 20 part of New York School Nutrition, and 21 it's -- you know, I'm always happy to meet 22 with other directors and share with them this 23 is what I'm doing. 24 The kids at Niskayuna were treated to 666 1 Tara Kitchen the other day. We were able to 2 partner with them and bring that in, which 3 was phenomenal. And it's, you know, sharing 4 those stories. And if we're not in our 5 offices, as Patrick said, chasing debt, we 6 can do more of that. 7 ASSEMBLYMAN MANKTELOW: Thank you all. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 9 Okay, just --I'm closing for the 10 Senate. I agree with everything everyone 11 said. And Jim Tedisco and I have not had 12 that many days like that in our lives. 13 (Laughter.) 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Just saying. 15 We should absolutely do universal -- 16 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: What also about 17 that being the best Senate district? 18 (Laughter.) 19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, yeah. Well, 20 okay, I'm not touching that. 21 Although I will highlight what you all 22 know, and I just want to make sure everybody 23 else knows, we have universal school meals in 24 the Big 5 and New York City. This is a 667 1 critical issue for the rest of the state, 2 particularly poor, rural school districts. 3 And so when the question was, well, 4 couldn't you do it without the money, the 5 answer is no, I don't believe they could. And 6 we need to make sure that we are investing in 7 our kids. Because you're absolutely right, 8 and everybody who spoke is absolutely right: 9 When you feed children nutritious food, they 10 grow up healthier, they learn better, they 11 don't create behavioral problems in school, 12 they save us money with special ed needs. 13 It's a win-win-win. 14 Oh, not to mention we buy more food 15 from New York State farmers, who also need 16 the help. And we create jobs for school food 17 workers. So there's just no argument for 18 this. 19 So thank you very much for being here. 20 I don't have any questions. Thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you for 22 being here with us and for the work you do on 23 your limited -- with your limited resources. 24 Thank you. 668 1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 2 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So we are ready 3 for the final panel. Sorry, somebody has to 4 be last. Center for Educational Equity at 5 Teachers College, Columbia University; 6 Alliance for Quality Education, YAFFED, 7 Solutions not Suspensions Coalition, 8 National Parents Union; and an individual 9 parent, Nikos Papageorgiou. 10 MR. REBELL: Good evening. I'm 11 Michael Rebell, and as some of you at least 12 know, I was counsel for the plaintiffs in the 13 CFE litigation, which I must mark 2023 as a 14 milestone. It is 30 years since my friend 15 Robert Jackson and I filed the papers on the 16 CFE case, which led to the Foundation Aid 17 formula, and we're pleased as punch that this 18 is the year that we are finally going to have 19 that paid out. 20 And I owe all of you a debt of 21 gratitude, because that formula was supposed 22 to be paid out in 2011, and we had previous 23 legislators, we had previous governors who 24 did not honor that commitment. 669 1 And I was also counsel for plaintiffs 2 in the NYSER case that we settled 3 two-and-a-half years ago, on the stipulation 4 that the Legislature and the Governor would 5 pay out that money in three years. And 6 you've kept your word, and I know you'll keep 7 it in April. So thank you for that. 8 But my big concern at this point is 9 what comes next. What happens in 2024? 10 We've heard all kinds of testimony today 11 about problems with the current Foundation 12 formula. 13 Let me tell you, ladies and gentlemen, 14 that formula is totally out of date. It was 15 conceived -- it was written in 2006. We 16 still count kids -- poverty kids are based on 17 the 2000 Census because it's written into the 18 Foundation Aid formula. We have regional 19 cost allocations that are based on 20 calculations done in 2006. We have a formula 21 that takes no account for homeless kids, that 22 we've got 10 percent in New York City. We 23 were unaware of that in 2006. It does not 24 take into account all of the experience of 670 1 the pandemic. It doesn't take into account 2 all kinds of changes in education policy and 3 mandates. 4 What do we need now? We need a very 5 thorough, zero-based reanalysis of what are 6 the current needs and how can they be met. 7 How can all the priorities you've been 8 hearing today be reconciled? What should be 9 the biggest priorities? And I submit to you 10 that that is a very difficult job. 11 First of all, it's legally required, 12 because the Court of Appeals made clear in 13 the CFE case that the Legislature and the 14 Governor have to calculate on an ongoing 15 basis what is the actual cost of providing a 16 sound, basic education. That was done in 17 2006 and 2007. It hasn't been done for 18 17 years. 19 And I'm asking you, please, we need to 20 set up a mechanism that's going to do it 21 thoroughly, that's going to do it right in 22 2023. 23 Now, the mechanism that we are 24 proposing is a permanent standing commission. 671 1 And I submitted a 25-page report; it gives 2 you a lot of detail about what we're 3 proposing for that. We don't have time to 4 get into the detail, but the bottom line is 5 it needs to be permanent. And it needs to be 6 well-staffed, because it's got to keep up 7 with changes so we don't go 17 years with an 8 out-of-date formula. 9 And I'll be happy to answer questions 10 about what's involved in it. Assemblyman 11 O'Donnell is going to be introducing a bill 12 on this in the Assembly. We're hoping to 13 have a companion bill in the Senate soon. 14 And I implore you to please make this 15 a matter of priority, even before April 1st. 16 It's going to take more than a year. We have 17 to set up a body that can really do this job 18 and do it right. 19 Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 22 MS. GRIPPER: Good evening, everyone. 23 I'm Jasmine Gripper, the executive 24 director of the Alliance for Quality 672 1 Education. And this is the first time that 2 AQE is proud to be here and say thank you for 3 fully funding the Foundation Aid formula. 4 This has been a long, hard fight, but 5 I really do want to thank the Legislature for 6 being with us for a really long time. Many 7 of you have been a part of the Foundation Aid 8 fight even before you came into the State 9 Legislature. We really thank you for 10 partnering with parents, community members, 11 and advocates to make this a reality and make 12 this robust investment in our public schools. 13 So thank you. 14 I want to say I agree with 15 Mike Rebell, it's time to fix and update the 16 Foundation Aid formula. It is essential. We 17 heard from the Big 5; there are so many 18 ongoing problems. 19 Yonkers mentioned what they did with 20 their federal money, they added staffing. 21 And one of the things that the Yonkers 22 superintendent said that was really 23 compelling, those positions should have never 24 been vacant. We're talking about high-needs 673 1 districts that went without counselors, that 2 went without social workers, that did not 3 have music or art in their schools for 4 decades when we were underfunding the 5 formula. And now districts are staffing up 6 and they're actually meeting the needs of 7 their students. 8 I know one person asked earlier, well, 9 what's the difference between Rochester and 10 Yonkers and the outcomes that we're seeing? 11 Rochester has had a fiscal monitor that has 12 advised them not to spend on ongoing 13 permanent funding with their one-time ARPA 14 funds, where Yonkers went ahead and took the 15 risk and said, We're going to invest in our 16 students and do what they need and hope that 17 the federal and state government will come to 18 the rescue and pick up the tab for ongoing 19 years. 20 And so I think that's the difference 21 in the approach that was taken. And we see 22 that districts who took a really aggressive 23 approach are seeing the outcomes to support 24 that. 674 1 And so we need a robust investment in 2 our schools. We need to continue to fund 3 Foundation Aid. But we have to address the 4 formula. We're not going to be able to fix 5 it with tweaks. We have to do a new 6 costing-out study. We fully support the 7 New York State Education Department leading 8 this and bringing stakeholders together to 9 revise the formula. 10 There are a few things I want to say 11 about charters. One, someone here mentioned 12 the school-to-prison pipeline -- which I 13 thought was interesting because, when 14 New York City did a report of 50 schools with 15 the highest suspension rate, 49 of them were 16 charters. 17 Another thing that charters mentioned 18 was racial justice and equity. And I think 19 the part that really offended me was for the 20 decades that AQE and Black and brown parents 21 were fighting for resources, charter schools 22 did not lift a finger, did not leverage any 23 of their resources, did not come to Albany, 24 and did not advocate on behalf of 675 1 Foundation Aid funding for Black and brown 2 students and Black and brown communities. 3 Yet they are benefiting from the full funding 4 of Foundation Aid. 5 And so they stated that they care 6 about all students. I think it's absolutely 7 untrue. But what they have been doing for 8 decades -- and they never supported the fight 9 to fully fund Foundation Aid for our schools. 10 And when they talked about the 11 financial impact, I think one thing I want to 12 point out: That last year New York City 13 schools received $348 million in 14 Foundation Aid. The New York City increase 15 for charter schools was $200 million. So 16 that means about 57 percent of Foundation Aid 17 went to charter schools, and charter schools 18 have 14 percent of the student population. 19 That is a disproportionate increase, and we 20 must reject that. 21 Thank you. 22 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 23 YAFFED? 24 MS. WISDOM: Yes, that's me. 676 1 Good evening, and thank you so much to 2 the chairs and committee members and your 3 staff for staying with us this late into the 4 evening. I'm here on behalf of YAFFED, an 5 organization that was started 12 years ago by 6 a graduate of a Hasidic yeshiva in Brooklyn 7 when he and some of his classmates learned 8 that there was a law on the books for over 9 100 years, 3204, that required that nonpublic 10 school students receive an education that is 11 at least substantially equivalent to those 12 that their -- to that that their public 13 school peers get. 14 We know that that is not the case. It 15 has been demonstrated widely. It has been 16 reported on broadly, as discussed earlier in 17 this hearing. And we're concerned that there 18 is currently no check in place, when 19 nonpublic schools are getting state aid, to 20 ensure that they are in compliance with 21 Law 3204. 22 We're very pleased that there's a new 23 regulatory process underway that the Regents 24 voted unanimously in September on these new 677 1 regulations governing nonpublic schools. 2 That regulatory process will take two years 3 to unfold. 4 So we know tens of thousands of 5 students are in these yeshivas right now. 6 Not all of them are guilty of not providing a 7 secular education, but those that are have 8 students in them right now, and we are giving 9 them funding from the state with no evidence 10 that they're providing a secular education at 11 all. 12 So in the meantime, we're suggesting 13 that there is an attestation put into place 14 that any nonpublic school receiving state aid 15 simply checks a box to say that they declare 16 they're offering a substantially equivalent 17 education. 18 As you heard, we don't know of any 19 plans in these schools right now to 20 remediate. All we know is that we'll be 21 collecting data at the local -- at the 22 LSA level over the next year, and they will 23 need to be putting in place a process in 24 two years. 678 1 But we're hopeful that now, before any 2 aid goes to these schools, you're willing to 3 ask them are they in compliance with the law. 4 Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 6 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Solutions Not 7 Suspensions Coalition? 8 MS. JAYARAM: Thank you. Can you all 9 hear me? 10 Good evening, everyone. My name is 11 Amshula Jayaram. I'm here today as a member 12 of the Solutions Not Suspensions Coalition. 13 We are calling for passage of the Solutions 14 Not Suspensions Act, now in its eighth 15 legislative cycle, which would great reduce 16 the discriminatory overuse of suspensions in 17 schools. 18 This bill -- and I'll keep coming back 19 to this -- aligns directly with the 20 recommendations of the New York State 21 Education Department's Safe and Supportive 22 Schools Task Force report. There is almost a 23 one-to-one -- and I have a handout here if 24 you all want to take a look. The members of 679 1 the task force included the New York City 2 DOE, individual school districts across the 3 state, the New York State United Teachers 4 Association, representatives from the 5 executive and legislative branches, mental 6 health experts, and education justice 7 advocates. 8 At its core, this bill is about 9 protecting our most vulnerable and 10 marginalized children from excessive 11 punishment and learning loss, which will 12 impact them for a lifetime. According to our 13 analysis, young people in grades pre-K 14 through 12 lost 913,811 days in this past 15 year to suspensions. Those are the lost days 16 of instruction. 17 An average of 766 students are 18 suspended everyday in New York State schools. 19 In Buffalo, where the AG is currently 20 conducting an investigation into the 21 discriminatory overuse of suspensions, there 22 were 200 suspensions in just the first 23 17 days of the current school year. And it 24 is no secret that those directly targeted by 680 1 exclusionary discipline are overwhelmingly 2 male, Black, brown, disabled, and come from 3 low-income households. 4 The SED report actually names these 5 factors and calls them the elephant in the 6 room. The SED report has cited research 7 showing that even a single suspension 8 increases the likelihood of dropout by 9 23 percent. That puts children on a path to 10 poverty and, even worse, the school-to-prison 11 and deportation pipeline. 12 So the bill essentially would 13 eliminate suspensions for pre-K through 3 14 except in rare cases and where required by 15 federal law. New York City already does 16 this. It would ensure that suspensions for 17 older students would not occur due to minor 18 infractions like dress code violations. 19 It caps the length of suspensions from 20 180 days, which is an entire school year, to 21 20 days. It would strengthen due process for 22 students. And most importantly, it reforms 23 codes of conduct to incorporate restorative 24 practices which address the root causes of 681 1 behavior infractions rather than punishment. 2 Sorry, I'm looking at the clock at the 3 same time. 4 I will end with a quote from 5 Joanna Miller, director of the Education 6 Policy Center at the New York Civil Liberties 7 Union, and member of the SED task force. "By 8 not passing the Solutions not Suspensions 9 Act, year to year our State Legislature is 10 propping up a massive discrimination system 11 against Black students and young people with 12 disabilities." 13 Thank you. 14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Perfect timing. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 16 National Parents Union? 17 MS. BAKER: Hi. Good evening, and 18 thank you for the opportunity to speak 19 tonight. It was well worth the wait. 20 My name is Ashara Baker, and I'm a 21 proud charter parent of a first-grader back 22 in Rochester. I've been community organizing 23 for just about 13 years in Rochester, and I'm 24 proud to say that I'm the National Parents 682 1 Union New York State director as well as 2 cofounder of the New York State Charter 3 Parent Council. 4 I've had the privilege of meeting and 5 training and supporting families across the 6 state, and they've all expressed similar 7 concerns about their children. These 8 families are making a conscious effort to do 9 right by their kids. I'm asking you to do 10 the same thing for them today. 11 The New York State public education 12 system is in dire need of change. We've 13 heard it all day. And we need to ensure that 14 New York students are prepared for a life of 15 opportunity. Families need lawmakers like 16 yourselves to step up and meet this moment, 17 because the consequences of inaction are too 18 great. Our kids' lives and their futures are 19 on the line. 20 This session there are some real 21 actions that can have an immediate impact on 22 the lives of our children. Every child 23 deserves a life of opportunity that is a 24 result of investing in high-quality 683 1 education. We believe in building robust 2 career pathway programs to support kids for 3 their future, supporting the science of 4 literacy as well as math, investing in 5 initiatives such as high-impact tutoring, and 6 ensuring all kids across the state have 7 high-quality, fully funded education options. 8 And when I say every child, I mean 9 every single child. I live in a district 10 that's subject to two state monitors. We 11 have a revolving door of superintendents, and 12 there is a disparity in district programs. I 13 chose to enroll my daughter into a charter 14 school because we couldn't let operational 15 dysfunction alter the trajectory of her life. 16 I made this choice, and I'm sure many 17 families have. She deserves a fair shot, 18 especially being called a so-called pandemic 19 baby. So I'm fortunate enough that my 20 daughter attends a high-performing 21 charter school, and they continue to amaze me 22 with the ability to do so much with so 23 little. 24 I applaud the outcomes, but I will not 684 1 celebrate until all charters like this one 2 have the fair funding that they deserve, just 3 like their districts. As I will note just 4 for all children in this system, New York 5 ranks 46th out of the 50 states within NAEP 6 for fourth-grade math. If we want to talk 7 about doing something for the system, we 8 should be focusing on initiatives such as 9 math and literacy. 10 But I will go back to my comment: 11 Every option should be a great option where a 12 student is guaranteed the ability to read and 13 do math. And just for a note, parents want 14 choice within public education. They deserve 15 to send their children to safe, supportive, 16 and results-driven learning environments. 17 Public charter schools serve as a way 18 for families to get a fair shot at a quality 19 education not based off their zip code. 20 Parents need to see measurable, meaningful 21 results from the public education system. We 22 need great choices in our neighborhoods. And 23 we need lawmakers to step up to ensure that 24 every child across the state is prepared for 685 1 a life of opportunity. 2 Parents want and deserve a good public 3 education. Thank you. 4 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 5 Nikos? 6 MR. PAPAGEORGIOU: Good evening. 7 Thank you very much for giving me the 8 opportunity to talk to you. And thank you 9 for keeping the best for last. 10 My name is Nikos Papageorgiou, and I'm 11 the father of two boys in the New York City 12 public system, a high school senior and a 13 middle school 8th-grader. 14 I'm here to let you know through my 15 eyes and thousands of parents like me, we're 16 not getting our money's worth from the 17 New York City Department of Education. We're 18 not getting our money's worth because 19 feelings and politics are driving New York 20 City educational planning instead of trying 21 to maximize all the kids' academic potential. 22 The New York City DOE is trying to 23 close the educational gap by lowering the 24 ceiling instead of raising the floor. And 686 1 they're doing so by decisions that include -- 2 but are not limited to -- limited accelerated 3 learning, no challenging work, and no 4 homework. 5 Our kids deserve better. The parents 6 demand better, and are leaving the system by 7 the thousands. We're not getting our money's 8 worth because Chancellor Banks did not follow 9 through with the Mayor's promise for 10 excellence in education. Chancellor Banks 11 made a huge mistake by allowing 12 superintendents to implement their own plans 13 across their districts. 14 Superintendents turned on their 15 selective hearing and did whatever they 16 wanted for whatever reasons, driving 17 thousands of families away from New York City 18 public education. Mr. Banks and the Mayor 19 cannot export the political cost that comes 20 with the city's educational planning to the 21 superintendents. They need to address it by 22 following through with the promises that got 23 them elected in the first place. 24 They need to come up with a uniform 687 1 educational plan based on excellence, as 2 promised, and ask the superintendents to 3 simply implement it. You cannot steer a ship 4 by consensus. Chancellor Banks needs to act 5 more like the captain that he was asked to 6 be. 7 We're not getting our money's worth 8 because the New York City Department of 9 Education does not have an objective measure 10 of academic success. Most schools in 11 New York City measure the academic success 12 only by the percentage of the kids that are 13 above a self-defined grade level. 14 Grade-level competency is probably the most 15 important thing, but not the only one. 16 Because they do not care, schools 17 right now don't keep track if during a school 18 year, let's say, an A student becomes a 19 B student, or a B student becomes a 20 C student, or even if a student who was below 21 grade level stayed further back. 22 My son's middle school, for example, 23 patted itself on the back last year for 24 achieving a self-selected above-grade-level 688 1 percentage of 70 percent, even though a huge 2 number of kids finished the year much worse 3 off than they started, as compared to the 4 national average -- including many of the 5 ones who were behind by grade level. 6 Please, demand more for our money by 7 demanding objective measures of academic 8 success for every student. The city is 9 already paying for the technology to allow 10 anybody to do so, but the city ignores the 11 data. 12 Thank you. 13 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 14 Thank you all for being here and for 15 staying here. There are a number of 16 legislators that have questions. 17 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: The night is 18 young. 19 (Laughter.) 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We're trying to 21 break the record -- we've already broken our 22 record. So far this is only the third 23 hearing. So hopefully this is not going to 24 continue to get broken. 689 1 We go to Assemblywoman Simon. 2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Hi. Thank you. 3 And thank you for being here. And thank you 4 all for the work that you do. 5 And Mr. Rebell, thank you so much. 6 I've been following your career for years. 7 And as a former special educator, I've been 8 following the CFE case forever. And, 9 Jasmine, I know your work has been great. 10 Thank you, all of you, for hanging in 11 there. 12 I'm very curious about, Mr. Rebell, 13 your suggestion about legislation to rework 14 how it is we do what we do in education. And 15 I, you know, will certainly speak to 16 Mr. O'Donnell about it, but I'm curious: Who 17 would be doing this work? It seems to me we 18 don't have a body of people who are really 19 primed and ready to do that kind of analysis. 20 You're right, it's very difficult, and 21 it will be very difficult in terms of 22 people's backgrounds and politics. And so if 23 you can explain a little more what you're 24 thinking of. 690 1 MR. REBELL: Well, essentially we're 2 recommending that the Legislature and the 3 Governor establish a standing commission 4 which would have representatives of 5 legislators, the Governor's people, the 6 regions, et cetera, but also stakeholders, 7 parents and the people who are going to 8 benefit from it. 9 Our expectation is the commission 10 would have an appropriation to allow them to 11 hire the best expertise in the country to dig 12 into this. And I certainly couldn't give you 13 all kinds of recommendations. There are 14 people who really understand this business, 15 who can really dig into the facts and can 16 come up with proposals, alternatives, that we 17 then are proposing that would be put out for 18 meaningful public engagement meetings around 19 the state to get the reaction from parents, 20 from students, from teachers, from the 21 general public. 22 And then the commission would make a 23 recommendation, and it would go to the 24 Legislature. But it would be thorough. And 691 1 with this expertise -- and we also think they 2 should have a staff -- they not only develop 3 this new formula, but the important thing is 4 that they stay in business. And every two 5 years they give a report to the Governor and 6 the Legislature about the implementation, 7 about revisions that are needed, about 8 cost-effective ways of improving education. 9 And, you know, to Senator Liu's point 10 that he brought up earlier, I certainly don't 11 think there can be a cap on what the level of 12 spending is, but a commission like this can 13 pay attention to relative costs. It can look 14 at outdated mandates. So when I say 15 thorough, I mean really taking a look at 16 what's needed now for current needs for our 17 kids to reach the levels that so many of my 18 colleagues and so many members of the 19 Legislature are saying it's about time our 20 kids really reached. 21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. 22 MR. REBELL: Anyway, I've got a 23 25-page report that's been submitted -- 24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I'm sure. I 692 1 have a lot more questions, too. 2 MR. REBELL: -- with as many details 3 as you'd like. 4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 6 Senate? 7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Shelley 8 Mayer. 9 SENATOR MAYER: Well, thank you all. 10 With your different perspectives, I 11 appreciate you all staying. 12 For Ms. Wisdom, the question is on 13 your proposal for an attestation. Would that 14 be an annual document that every nonpublic 15 school would send into the State Education 16 Department, is that your proposal? 17 MS. WISDOM: Yes. Thank you for the 18 question. 19 And ideally there wouldn't need to be 20 an annual ongoing attestation if there were 21 other checks that Law 3204 and the new 22 regulations were being followed. 23 The new regulatory process does 24 require schools to give lots of information 693 1 in various formats. So this may become moot 2 at that point, but our concern is primarily 3 for the students who are in these schools 4 over the next two years, before that process 5 really takes off. 6 SENATOR MAYER: Okay, thank you. 7 And Mr. Rebell, thank you for your 8 excellent work on everything, and certainly 9 your report. 10 The proposal of having an ongoing 11 commission, as opposed to sort of a one-time 12 suggestion, which is SED'S proposal -- which 13 again wasn't in the Governor's budget either, 14 so there's no attention to how we're going to 15 fix this problem from the way the Governor 16 proposed it. But we have to deal with it one 17 way or another. 18 I recall that you said some states 19 have this ongoing commission model. Which 20 are the ones that sort of are closest to what 21 you're proposing? 22 MR. REBELL: In our report we talk 23 about Oregon, which has had it for 15 or 24 20 years, and they come up with reports every 694 1 two years. I did take that as a precedent. 2 Illinois has a standing panel like 3 this. They recently established a similar 4 situation in Maryland. So there are 5 precedents. 6 Now, each of them does it in a 7 different way, and we were looking at 8 New York's needs. But there are adequate 9 precedents for this. And I can go into more, 10 but we don't have time. 11 SENATOR MAYER: And I just want to say 12 to Ms. Jayaram that on the issue of solutions 13 not suspensions, I think, you know, credit to 14 the coalition. There's certainly renewed 15 activism on this subject now post-COVID where 16 we have seen some numbers that are very 17 disappointing, as you pointed out. 18 And I'm hopeful, you know, with 19 Senator Jackson's leadership we're going to 20 try to address some of the things that have 21 been stumbling blocks. Which, we have to be 22 honest, we -- it was very difficult to find a 23 consensus on this bill. I'm hopeful that 24 there's flexibility in trying to find a way 695 1 forward. 2 So I just would ask that everyone have 3 an open mind so we can get to a solution. 4 And I'm sure that that is the case. 5 And lastly, I just want to thank 6 Ms. Gripper for her really incredible 7 advocacy and speaking up for districts and 8 students outside New York City particularly, 9 and for me, who were not part of the 10 conversation before. Thanks for that, and 11 for getting to this point. I know you 12 support the other proposal that SED has. So 13 it's -- just a distinction there. 14 Yes, thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: We go to 16 Assemblyman Otis. 17 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you all. 18 Thank you all for your great advocacy. And 19 AQE, great work there. 20 Mike Rebell, I read your report and, 21 you know, I'd say that in state government 22 there are a handful of people that have made 23 such a significant difference in the policies 24 of the State of New York. You are one of 696 1 those few people. So thank you for decades 2 of great work. 3 A question about the report, because 4 updating is so important. And school 5 districts today, they could have an influx of 6 kids with special needs, an influx of English 7 language learners. There could be big 8 economic changes in a community. And our 9 formulas now are so slow to respond, it is 10 very frustrating. 11 So I ask the question -- you mentioned 12 two years, a two-year cycle for reports. But 13 couldn't we be a little more ambitious and 14 come up with models that are more 15 time-sensitive to changes that school 16 districts see and have the formula work that 17 way? 18 And I'll give another example going 19 back a few decades. We've over the years 20 eliminated experience-based aids in a number 21 of categories that would have reflected 22 changes. They were put into the regular 23 formula, then into Foundation Aid. So those 24 changes are lost in terms of sensitivity and 697 1 funding. 2 I'll stop there and just -- but 3 couldn't we be quicker in terms of using data 4 to respond? 5 MR. REBELL: Okay, yes. And, you 6 know, we've proposed this every two years 7 because there is precedent for that and all. 8 But it doesn't preclude making it 9 every year, having interim reports. If major 10 issues come up like migrant students, if we 11 had this standing commission, they could take 12 an immediate look at it, they could dig into 13 what the actual costs are, look at other 14 states and what are the best ways of dealing 15 with this. 16 So we've got a proposal out there. I 17 know if the Assembly and the Senate pick it 18 up, people are going to rethink it, there's 19 going to be further thoughts. So it's not 20 written in stone. But the basic principle of 21 having a thorough, up-to-date analysis of 22 current needs that fit the requirement, the 23 constitutional requirement to provide kids a 24 sound, basic education on an ongoing basis -- 698 1 that principle, I submit, has to be in 2 whatever entity emerges from this. 3 And the second principle is I think it 4 has to be a standing commission so we don't 5 have to wait 17 years to get a new formula 6 and, as your point, we have more immediate 7 things. And maybe it's every year, maybe 8 it's every three years they need to report, 9 but all of that can be worked out around the 10 basic principles of a thoroughgoing, 11 zero-based, new look at what's needed and a 12 standing commission to follow up on it. 13 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you all for 14 your advocacy, everybody on this panel. We 15 saved the best for last. 16 (Laughter.) 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Senate? 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 19 Senator Jabari Brisport. 20 SENATOR BRISPORT: Is this on? 21 Okay -- 22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Check your 23 microphone. 24 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you all so 699 1 much for your testimonies and for being here 2 this late. 3 I just had two questions. They're 4 both about charters. 5 The first is for Ms. Gripper. I just 6 want to help -- I just would like for you to 7 help us understand something. Let's -- 8 hypothetically, let's say I own a 9 corporation and I want to make as much money 10 as I can from -- 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Jabari, we 12 can't hear you. 13 SENATOR BRISPORT: Can you hear me 14 now? 15 MS. GRIPPER: Yes. 16 SENATOR BRISPORT: I'll lean in. 17 So, Ms. Gripper, can you help us 18 understand -- let's say I own a corporation 19 and I want to make as much money as I can, 20 possibly from a charter school, but I'm 21 restricted to only opening a nonprofit 22 charter school. 23 Could you help us understand how I 24 might still be able to make a huge profit 700 1 even after opening up a nonprofit charter 2 school? 3 MS. GRIPPER: Yeah. So we've seen 4 this happen in New York State. 5 So, one, if you are on the board of 6 the charter, you get them to rent a building 7 that you own and then you charge them rent 8 that's way above market value. We've had 9 that happen even here in the City of Albany. 10 Most charter schools contract with a 11 for-profit management company, and you charge 12 the charter school a rate per pupil to help 13 with management costs. Again, you can raise 14 a profit from that. 15 And so even though New York does not 16 allow for-profit charter schools, there are 17 plenty of people who are making money off the 18 charter industry here in New York State. 19 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you, 20 Ms. Gripper. 21 And the second question is for 22 Ms. Jayaram. 23 In the Solutions Not Suspensions bill, 24 it calls for charters to follow the same 701 1 rules around discipline and suspensions as 2 New York State law. Could you explain more 3 the need for that, and what if any rules 4 around discipline and suspensions charter 5 schools currently follow? 6 MS. JAYARAM: So the first thing I can 7 say is that yes, the -- and I'm sorry, I 8 should have mentioned that. The bill 9 absolutely applies to charter schools. 10 The second thing I'll say is that I 11 have a page of data from the 2021-2022 school 12 year. All of it is from public schools, 13 because we don't really know what is 14 happening in the charter schools. And I 15 know, you know, the issues of transparency 16 and accountability were brought up before, 17 and that is absolutely a reason why this is 18 such a critical provision of this bill. And 19 why I can't actually really answer your 20 second question, because we just don't know. 21 We get the sense, you know, we hear 22 from parents that their kids are pushed out, 23 particularly kids with disabilities. But we 24 don't know enough. And I think this whole 702 1 committee has in the past addressed that very 2 issue. 3 So thank you for asking. 4 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you so much. 5 You know, I can share when I was 6 teaching -- I was a public schoolteacher 7 before this -- and my sixth-graders would 8 often joke that if they had gone to the 9 charter school in the community, that they 10 would be suspended for things as small as 11 looking the wrong way or having their outfit 12 on wrong. 13 So I hope one day we have the 14 transparency on what is actually happening 15 inside these charter schools that you're 16 talking about, Ms. Jayaram. 17 Thank you. No more questions. 18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 19 Assembly? 20 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Yes. We go to 21 Assemblywoman Peoples-Stokes. 22 ASSEMBLYWOMAN PEOPLES-STOKES: Thank 23 you very much, Madam Chair. 24 I really just wanted to say thank you 703 1 to you all for your patience. 2 And I wonder if Mr. Rebell knows what 3 that bill number is that he's talking about, 4 because I think that's an amazing idea whose 5 time has come. And there is no question that 6 there's something wrong with that formula. 7 And by the way, there is a ton of 8 other formulas in the state education budget 9 that go all over the place, and districts 10 will follow the money. They will figure out 11 how to make themselves available to get that 12 money on that budget line. 13 It's what happened to Community 14 Schools, quite frankly. It got coopted in a 15 lot of ways, because people figured out how 16 to get access to it when it was really 17 designed to create some level of equity in 18 the traditional public school systems. 19 And the last thing I would just say is 20 if you can give me the number, that would be 21 great. If not, I can look it up later. 22 I want to say to the parents who came 23 here today that your voice speaks volumes. I 24 know that everybody else comes because they 704 1 have an agenda, they have a job, they have 2 something they want to see happen. 3 You're trying to raise your children, 4 that's all you're trying to do, and get them 5 educated. So I really do commend every 6 parent who spoke here today. Thank you for 7 doing that. 8 And thank all of you for coming. 9 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. 11 Senator Robert Jackson to close for 12 the Senate. 13 SENATOR JACKSON: I'm the closer? 14 Well, this is the last panel, and I 15 was waiting in order to go home until the 16 last panel was here. 17 So first, let me thank you all for 18 coming and listening to the testimony. As 19 I've said to every panel, you're spending 20 your time and energy to come make the 21 presentations to us as legislators in order 22 to give us an insight into the issues and 23 concerns that impact not only you, but all 24 the children in New York State. And that's 705 1 the most important thing. 2 First, let me address the parent that 3 sends her child to a charter school. I've 4 said to parents every parent has to decide 5 what's best for their child. And so if 6 that's what you've decided, that's what you 7 decided. 8 And I say to you that the three girls 9 that I have with my wife, two of them went to 10 public high schools and all of them went to 11 K-8 school right in our neighborhood. But 12 our youngest daughter, based on the 13 conversations I had with my wife, we sent her 14 to private school for high school, the Dwight 15 School. So I never hid that. 16 But everyone knows that I'm fighting 17 for public schools, okay? And Michael and 18 AQE, you both want the same goal, but you 19 just have different avenues to get there. 20 And, you know, just like we have to get 21 together and deal with those that disagree 22 with us regarding solutions not suspensions, 23 we have to work together and come up with an 24 agreement. And so that's important. 706 1 And YAFFED, you know where I stand 2 with that. I've said loud and clear: If 3 they're not doing it, and this is years -- 4 this happened -- this is not just the last 5 year. Cut them off. Cut the money off. You 6 know, it's -- enough is enough. 7 And I liked your testimony, sir. If 8 you don't mind, did you put it in -- is it in 9 the chat somewhere? Because I'd like to read 10 what you had to say about, you know, the fact 11 that the City Department of Education has to 12 assess and make things right. 13 MR. PAPAGEORGIOU: I'd love to. 14 SENATOR JACKSON: I say to all of you, 15 keep the spirit up, understanding that 16 this -- we're in this for the long haul. 17 This is not going to happen -- you heard what 18 Betty Rosa said, the process it takes in 19 order to basically get things moving. It 20 could take another year even if there was an 21 agreement. 22 But we have to make things work, and 23 we have to push it. And that's what I'm here 24 to do, that's what John and everybody else is 707 1 here to do. They've listened to what 2 everybody had to say. And so I say to all of 3 you, thank you, thank you, thank you on 4 behalf of all of the children that are 5 depending on all of us to do the right thing 6 so that they can get a good education. 7 MS. GRIPPER: Thank you, Senator. 8 MR. REBELL: Thank you. 9 MS. JAYARAM: Thank you. 10 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: So with that, I 11 want to -- 12 SENATOR JACKSON: I yield back five 13 seconds. 14 (Laughter.) 15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: First time ever. 16 (Laughter.) 17 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: I'm sure you've 18 used that previously today. Sorry. 19 I do want to echo my colleague's 20 comments and thank you all for waiting. 21 Sometimes being last is best, in that it's 22 what we end up leaving the room with and 23 remembering most. So thank you for being 24 here. 708 1 This concludes the Elementary and 2 Secondary Education hearing. We will be back 3 in this room in 13 hours, just under 4 13 hours, for the Economic Development 5 hearing starting at 9:30, to be followed by 6 the Tax hearing tentatively scheduled for 7 2:00 p.m. 8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you, 9 everyone. Thank you very much for staying so 10 late. 11 CHAIRWOMAN WEINSTEIN: Thank you. The 12 hearing is now closed. 13 (Whereupon, the budget hearing 14 concluded at 8:40 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

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